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The IFS vs SFA Thread

hcoll

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As far as there being solid axle swap kits available... it's becoming much more painful to do those aftermarket, especially due to all of the electronics involved in stability control, traction control and so on. If you grab an F150 and swap a solid axle into the front of it, and then you crash it... wonder how your insurance is gonna feel about it when you disabled all of the safety shit to get your axle in there...
You're absolutely right in that regard, but whatever Ford decides to put in the new Bronco, IFS OR a solid axle, we really don't have many choices other than buying a Wrangler or swapping an aftermarket solid axle kit. But let's not pretend that IFS is better for hardcore wheeling, other than prerunning.
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As far as there being solid axle swap kits available... it's becoming much more painful to do those aftermarket, especially due to all of the electronics involved in stability control, traction control and so on. If you grab an F150 and swap a solid axle into the front of it, and then you crash it... wonder how your insurance is gonna feel about it when you disabled all of the safety shit to get your axle in there...
Automotive electronics and safety have evolved very quickly in the last decade.

My 2008 Canyon had no traction control, stability control, backup camera, adaptive cruise, forward collision alert, blindspot monitoring, parking censors, etc. It was easier to SFA swap one of those, than anything on the market today. As long as you had some fabrication skills, and some parts, you were good to go for the most part.
 

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False. There are no other current options for a swb, 2 door SUV with IFS, let alone one intended to be able to handle rough terrain and that has any sort of high performance powertrain. There is an option for an SUV with a SFA, it's the wrangler.

A Raptor is far too large to be usable on any of the unpaved roads around where I am. I certainly won't argue that people like me are the majority of the enthusiasts, but the enthusiasts are far from the majority of the market regardless.
The raptor is too big... But the 100" wide bronco is just fine? You throw out the 2 door suv requirement... there aren't any other 2 door suvs out there because they don't sell, plain and simple. The last 2 door suv's out there were the isuzu vehicross and the land rover evoque The wrangler still has 2 doors because of the purists, but the 4 door outsells it by massive numbers. So not only does a 2 door not make much sense nowadays, it also makes for a shitty pre-runner. There's a reason wheelbase was obviously stretched on the Bronco R, there's a reason most prerunners are longer trucks, there's a reason no one makes a prerunner suzuki samurai/2dr wrangler/isuzu amigo/etc...

You can get a regular cab truck, that has 2 doors. You can get a super cab raptor, that's got 2 extra shitty doors. You can get practically any number and size of trucks, a fairly large number of SUVs (to include the Rav4, pathfinder, grand cherokee, etc), and to top it off, every freaking side by side that will put a full vehicle to shame in terms of prerunner type performance, and run those around a desert at high speed better than any short wheelbase 2 door suv.

There's only 1 rock crawler suv out there. If you want Ford to compete with the rest of the IFS stuff, that's awesome. Maybe they'll be successful at offering yet one more IFS vehicle that's different than all other IFS vehicles... I want them to take on the wrangler because they pretty much have the market to themselves.
 

JimmyDean

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The raptor is too big... But the 100" wide bronco is just fine? You throw out the 2 door suv requirement... there aren't any other 2 door suvs out there because they don't sell, plain and simple. The last 2 door suv's out there were the isuzu vehicross and the land rover evoque The wrangler still has 2 doors because of the purists, but the 4 door outsells it by massive numbers. So not only does a 2 door not make much sense nowadays, it also makes for a shitty pre-runner. There's a reason wheelbase was obviously stretched on the Bronco R, there's a reason most prerunners are longer trucks, there's a reason no one makes a prerunner suzuki samurai/2dr wrangler/isuzu amigo/etc...

You can get a regular cab truck, that has 2 doors. You can get a super cab raptor, that's got 2 extra shitty doors. You can get practically any number and size of trucks, a fairly large number of SUVs (to include the Rav4, pathfinder, grand cherokee, etc), and to top it off, every freaking side by side that will put a full vehicle to shame in terms of prerunner type performance, and run those around a desert at high speed better than any short wheelbase 2 door suv.

There's only 1 rock crawler suv out there. If you want Ford to compete with the rest of the IFS stuff, that's awesome. Maybe they'll be successful at offering yet one more IFS vehicle that's different than all other IFS vehicles... I want them to take on the wrangler because they pretty much have the market to themselves.
um, he has said he doesn't want the 100" wide one either. or even 90. He's looking for something similar to his Pajero, which does look like a fun tiny 4x4 SUV. Jalisurr does appear to have a need for what he is saying his wants, and I've no issue with that. He is also understanding that his specific needs are an extreme minority, even more-so than those who feel we need an SFA for this new updated Bronco.

But he has been very consistent in his requests/desires for this truck.
 

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um, he has said he doesn't want the 100" wide one either. or even 90. He's looking for something similar to his Pajero, which does look like a fun tiny 4x4 SUV. Jalisurr does appear to have a need for what he is saying his wants, and I've no issue with that. He is also understanding that his specific needs are an extreme minority, even more-so than those who feel we need an SFA for this new updated Bronco.

But he has been very consistent in his requests/desires for this truck.
The question is whether we're talking good at rocks vs good at prerunner type stuff. Point is, narrow and short wheel base is not good for prerunner type stuff... The Pajero in stock form is terrible - I actually was in one (though it was an older gen) last time I was in europe, and has jack for wheel travel. If you want prerunner performance in a small package, you have to go side by side, or full size truck type vehicle. The reason there aren't any options for that is because it doesn't work well. It's much like saying there are no short 2 door suvs with good towing capacity... Yes, because short wheelbase, tiny and towing don't mix well.
 

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So that puts Wranglers at just under 10:1 vs Raptors. Given that the raptor is at a significantly higher price point it doesn't seem too unreasonable to call the raptor a sales success in addition to being a draw for people who actually end up buying an FX4 or somesuch.
Maybe I'm not following here, but wouldn't it make more sense to compare high-option Wranglers to the Raptor? My guess is Rubicons still outsell, but that isn't the sole metric of "success". Creating a halo model has some unquantifiable advantages, which both Wrangler and F-150 benefit from.
 

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The question is whether we're talking good at rocks vs good at prerunner type stuff. Point is, narrow and short wheel base is not good for prerunner type stuff... The Pajero in stock form is terrible - I actually was in one (though it was an older gen) last time I was in europe, and has jack for wheel travel. If you want prerunner performance in a small package, you have to go side by side, or full size truck type vehicle. The reason there aren't any options for that is because it doesn't work well. It's much like saying there are no short 2 door suvs with good towing capacity... Yes, because short wheelbase, tiny and towing don't mix well.
You keep using the term "prerunner", and posing it as an argument against a short wheelbase, but that isn't what his intended purpose is. It seems to me his use is closer to Rally, but on narrow, snow-covered woods roads. So your argument, while factually accurate, is misplaced.
 

Jalisurr

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The raptor is too big... But the 100" wide bronco is just fine?
um, he has said he doesn't want the 100" wide one either. or even 90. He's looking for something similar to his Pajero, which does look like a fun tiny 4x4 SUV.
Thank you! Something around 80" wide like the Ranger Raptor would be great. My Pajero Evo with the wide body kit is 75". My concern with size is more to do with weight in general, and more importantly length. both wheelbase and overall length. In my use, short wheelbase helps the vehicle rotate faster in a turn, and more importantly if it can't fit sideways on the trail it makes it impossible to drift around hairpins properly without clipping the snowbanks or worse, the trees. Specialized use, yes, but there's a method to my madness.

You throw out the 2 door suv requirement... there aren't any other 2 door suvs out there because they don't sell, plain and simple. The last 2 door suv's out there were the isuzu vehicross and the land rover evoque The wrangler still has 2 doors because of the purists, but the 4 door outsells it by massive numbers.
Correct. The 2 door SUV is not a popular body style except for enthusiasts, and creating the image and credibility needed to drive sales of the 4 door. That will be true for the Bronco regardless of suspension design. Doesn't change the fact that for me or people like me (an admittedly small group) who want to go fast along small trails...you need something short. As short a wheelbase as possible generally.

So not only does a 2 door not make much sense nowadays, it also makes for a shitty pre-runner. There's a reason wheelbase was obviously stretched on the Bronco R, there's a reason most prerunners are longer trucks, there's a reason no one makes a prerunner suzuki samurai/2dr wrangler/isuzu amigo/etc...

You can get a regular cab truck, that has 2 doors. You can get a super cab raptor, that's got 2 extra shitty doors. You can get practically any number and size of trucks, a fairly large number of SUVs (to include the Rav4, pathfinder, grand cherokee, etc), and to top it off, every freaking side by side that will put a full vehicle to shame in terms of prerunner type performance, and run those around a desert at high speed better than any short wheelbase 2 door suv.
You keep using the term "prerunner", and posing it as an argument against a short wheelbase, but that isn't what his intended purpose is. It seems to me his use is closer to Rally, but on narrow, snow-covered woods roads. So your argument, while factually accurate, is misplaced.
Again, thank you for coming to my defense. You are absolutely correct, my use is closer to Rally, but on generally poorly maintained, rough, narrow, and (sometimes) snow and ice covered forest roads. Prerunning has nothing to do with it, there's no Baja style whoops on these roads, more along the lines of big ruts, washboard, ditches, cattle guards, etc. I promise you that something close to square in footprint is ideal for that. And while I can't speak from experience on this obviously, I'd also go on to contest that for full on desert dunes more in line with the Dakar rally (where the most successful EVER vehicle, the Pajero, has a 95" wheelbase), SWB works perfectly well (and keeps you from beaching yourself at the top of a dune). It's the Baja style terrain that necessitates the long wheelbase of the trophy trucks.

The question is whether we're talking good at rocks vs good at prerunner type stuff. Point is, narrow and short wheel base is not good for prerunner type stuff... The Pajero in stock form is terrible - I actually was in one (though it was an older gen) last time I was in europe, and has jack for wheel travel.
You've never been in a Pajero Evo obviously. Regular Pajeros were torsion bar front suspension with a live rear axle on leaf springs with yes, limited suspension travel...the Evo is a whole different beast. Widebody, wider track, double wishbone IFS with multi-link IRS. It's got exactly 10" of suspension travel because that was the limit allowed in the class it ran (and won) in the Paris-Dakar Rally. It does this:
2004-Mitsubishi-Pajero-Evolution-review-classic-MOTOR.jpg



If you want prerunner performance in a small package, you have to go side by side, or full size truck type vehicle. The reason there aren't any options for that is because it doesn't work well. It's much like saying there are no short 2 door suvs with good towing capacity... Yes, because short wheelbase, tiny and towing don't mix well.
Again, there are other enthusiast uses for an SUV other than rock crawling and prerunning the baja. I've NEVER claimed that I'm the majority of the enthusiasts. However, there is absolutely a use for a SWB 4x4 SUV with high performance.

There's only 1 rock crawler suv out there. If you want Ford to compete with the rest of the IFS stuff, that's awesome. Maybe they'll be successful at offering yet one more IFS vehicle that's different than all other IFS vehicles... I want them to take on the wrangler because they pretty much have the market to themselves.
Hoping that they take on the wrangler in the rocks is fair and I can't fault that. I've never said that those who want a SFA for rock crawling are wrong, just that that wouldn't be my preference. In a perfect world Ford will build something with options that can please everyone, but we have no idea.

At the end of the day Ford just needs to create a sufficiently credible image of capability. It's MY hope that Ford will lean into their desert running heritage rather than going toe to toe with the wrangler on the rocks. Build something that will let them take pictures of it out in the dunes instead of on the rocks Moab, and in the process end up coming out with a vehicle that perfectly suits my needs. That'll still satisfy the need for image of the regular consumer, and with IFS and rack and pinion steering, they might win some more over from the wrangler when they go for an (inevitably on pavement) test drive.
 

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Maybe I'm not following here, but wouldn't it make more sense to compare high-option Wranglers to the Raptor? My guess is Rubicons still outsell, but that isn't the sole metric of "success". Creating a halo model has some unquantifiable advantages, which both Wrangler and F-150 benefit from.
Yes, agreed. I'd say perhaps we should compare only Rubicon sales to the Raptor (but I can't find numbers broken down by trim for the wrangler), or maybe lump the FX4 in with the Raptor for 'off road' F150s. That wasn't the original question though, it was whether the Raptor is a sales success and not just image, which I believe the data shows it definitely is.
 

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Ok,
False. There are no other current options for a swb, 2 door SUV with IFS, let alone one intended to be able to handle rough terrain and that has any sort of high performance powertrain. There is an option for an SUV with a SFA, it's the wrangler.

A Raptor is far too large to be usable on any of the unpaved roads around where I am. I certainly won't argue that people like me are the majority of the enthusiasts, but the enthusiasts are far from the majority of the market regardless.[/QUOT
You keep using the term "prerunner", and posing it as an argument against a short wheelbase, but that isn't what his intended purpose is. It seems to me his use is closer to Rally, but on narrow, snow-covered woods roads. So your argument, while factually accurate, is misplaced.
Wouldn’t the car based bronco be better for this application?
 

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Jalisurr

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Ok,
Wouldn’t the car based bronco be better for this application?
Fair question. Without knowing much, the baby bronco could theoretically tick these boxes:
-reasonably short (for my purposes I'd say around 180" is the absolute max length, I'd prefer more like 160-170)
-reasonable clearance (around 10" is sufficient)
-reasonable suspension travel (8-10")
-high performance (I want at least the 2.7 ecoboost)

However, even if it does do all those things (I'm somewhat skeptical but we just don't know at the moment) my understanding is it will share a lot with the 2020 escape, which leads me to believe it would not be sufficient. Two primary things:
-The 2020 escape doesn't have a proper full time 4wd system with a center diff or transfer case. I believe it's a haldex type system that only shuttles power to the rear after the fronts start to slip. That's a hard no for me. This also makes it very unlikely to have front and rear limited slip or locking diffs, or the ability to add them aftermarket, which is another requirement for me.
-The 2020 escape is macpherson strut front suspension, not double wishbone. I've seen too many broken struts or top hats blown out of the strut tower for me to trust a macpherson strut vehicle unless they somehow go out of their way to prove its ruggedness.
 

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You keep using the term "prerunner", and posing it as an argument against a short wheelbase, but that isn't what his intended purpose is. It seems to me his use is closer to Rally, but on narrow, snow-covered woods roads. So your argument, while factually accurate, is misplaced.
I keep using that because lots of people arguing for an IFS keep talking about going fast thru the desert... I get it, he wants a rally suv that will go fast through the woods... And here i thought the desert prerunner guys were a small market since its really only a thing in the southwest... Not sure how much market there is for a rally suv, but i can tell you that if they were to make a vehicle good at only something like thag - which they would have to compromise on rock crawling capability and prerunner type stuff, i'm pretty sure the masses would be disappointed...

A small number would be very happy, but the rest of us that want to go fast thru the forest would just get back into the rzr/canam/etc, and save a few tens of thousands of dollars... I guess the closest thing they make to what he wants is the turbo forester... To each their own.

If on the other hand they offered the original recipe: solid axles, 5.0 v8, and choice of manual or auto, they would have to hire extra security at dealerships... =P. Can you imagine how many wrangler guys would be stolen since they would no longer have to go thru a hemi or ls swap? :)

I know, I'm day dreaming... Haha.
 

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I honestly don't care if it's IFS or SFA because 100% of anything I am going to drive on will be equally handled by either suspension type with adequate ground clearance and good tires (and anything it can handle I can just drive around), but also come on let's not kid ourselves, it's going to be IFS. I think I even read Mike Levine saying somewhere that it's going to have the Ranger suspension with some tweaks (don't quote me on that until I can actually find the quote ...)

But hey Mopar sold (still sells? idk) portal axles for the Wrangler so maybe Ford Performance will sell an SFA kit for the Bronco?


ETA: oh yeah and I will eat my shorts if the baby bronco is not a Ford Jeep Renegade.
 

Jalisurr

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I keep using that because lots of people arguing for an IFS keep talking about going fast thru the desert... I get it, he wants a rally suv that will go fast through the woods... And here i thought the desert prerunner guys were a small market since its really only a thing in the southwest... Not sure how much market there is for a rally suv, but i can tell you that if they were to make a vehicle good at only something like thag - which they would have to compromise on rock crawling capability and prerunner type stuff, i'm pretty sure the masses would be disappointed...

A small number would be very happy, but the rest of us that want to go fast thru the forest would just get back into the rzr/canam/etc, and save a few tens of thousands of dollars... I guess the closest thing they make to what he wants is the turbo forester... To each their own.

If on the other hand they offered the original recipe: solid axles, 5.0 v8, and choice of manual or auto, they would have to hire extra security at dealerships... =P. Can you imagine how many wrangler guys would be stolen since they would no longer have to go thru a hemi or ls swap? :)

I know, I'm day dreaming... Haha.
Yeah, I know I'm a tiny part of the market. But let's be honest, enthusiasts in general are a small fraction compared to the general public buying these things. Unfortunately for us Ford doesn't need to make all of us happy to have a very successful vehicle. I'm basically hoping that they'll take a slightly different track, use high speed ability to market the Bronco instead of trying to go exactly toe to toe with the wrangler, and essentially inadvertently make a vehicle that's perfect for me.

Side by sides are awesome but don't work for rally because 1 they aren't street legal and 2 you'd freeze in the winter. Turbo foresters are definitely the closest thing to the right formula at the moment, but they've gotten too big recently and even when they were smaller the suspension isn't as strong as I'd like without aftermarket reinforcement. Modified Forester XTs are definitely the most common vehicle out there at these events though, you're spot on.

I can completely understand why you guys want a rock crawler with SFA. In a perfect world we'd get both but...we'll see.
 

Nanook

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I keep using that because lots of people arguing for an IFS keep talking about going fast thru the desert... I get it, he wants a rally suv that will go fast through the woods... And here i thought the desert prerunner guys were a small market since its really only a thing in the southwest... Not sure how much market there is for a rally suv, but i can tell you that if they were to make a vehicle good at only something like thag - which they would have to compromise on rock crawling capability and prerunner type stuff, i'm pretty sure the masses would be disappointed...

A small number would be very happy, but the rest of us that want to go fast thru the forest would just get back into the rzr/canam/etc, and save a few tens of thousands of dollars... I guess the closest thing they make to what he wants is the turbo forester... To each their own.

If on the other hand they offered the original recipe: solid axles, 5.0 v8, and choice of manual or auto, they would have to hire extra security at dealerships... =P. Can you imagine how many wrangler guys would be stolen since they would no longer have to go thru a hemi or ls swap? :)

I know, I'm day dreaming... Haha.
Ya exactly, the Wrangler is not successful because everyone loves theirs stock and you never see any modified.
Provide people a better platform to start with, with a factory warranty and they will switch.
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