Sponsored

The IFS vs SFA Thread

JimmyDean

Badlands
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2019
Threads
13
Messages
1,744
Reaction score
4,071
Location
Louisiana
Vehicle(s)
82 Bronco, 513 ci; 71 mach 1, 351C; 06 F-250, 6.0; 56 800, 172c.i. gas
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
Lots of super duty guys report the same issue. I’ve never experienced it though on my early bronco, F350, or F450.
It is because they are fucking idiots with maintaining their vehicles, and modifying with mall crawler shit. On the Jeep in the video, there are two main contributing parts. the track bar =/= steering bar. And the steering damper is weak as fuck.

What happens is people put on their shitty ass lift and don't tighten things down using lock nuts to the required torque, and don't upgrade their dampers. be it a Heep, or a 250. Having the track bar not be the exact same lift and angle as the steering bar will help induce it as well (this is also what causes bump steer, which can induce the wobble). Jeeps are notorious for this issue, their bars on a lot of models are not the same length, the 250 with even the cheap lifts do a good job of maintaining proper angle, and are proper length from the factory.

Same thing with death wobble on bikes. There is a certain amount of trail vs weight balance you need to maintain on a bike, and tight bolts. harley's get it from the rear swingarm being loose after a job chroming something up that involved removing the swing arm and shit wasn't tightened down right, sprortsbikes from trying to lighten the front end with a slightly smaller front tire that makes their rake therefore trail smaller. And choppers from not having enough weight on the front end of the bike (also on some cruisers). Plus, of course, other worn out parts , low fork fluid, worn tires, worn bushings and bearings in the triple tree (my bike got it from trashed triple tree bearings, so much so that all I had to do was let go of the handles and it would start the wobble)
Sponsored

 

JimmyDean

Badlands
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2019
Threads
13
Messages
1,744
Reaction score
4,071
Location
Louisiana
Vehicle(s)
82 Bronco, 513 ci; 71 mach 1, 351C; 06 F-250, 6.0; 56 800, 172c.i. gas
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was only on the coil spring super duties (05+?).
yes, because there is no track bar on the leaf spring trucks. see my much longer post above (post 267)
 

Toyhoarder

Badlands
Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2018
Threads
4
Messages
345
Reaction score
563
Location
The west
Vehicle(s)
Early Bronco, F-150, F-450
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
yes, because there is no track bar on the leaf spring trucks. see my much longer post above (post 267)
Haha. Apparently you’ve never looked under a pre-05 super duty.
 

JimmyDean

Badlands
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2019
Threads
13
Messages
1,744
Reaction score
4,071
Location
Louisiana
Vehicle(s)
82 Bronco, 513 ci; 71 mach 1, 351C; 06 F-250, 6.0; 56 800, 172c.i. gas
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
Haha. Apparently you’ve never looked under a pre-05 super duty.
when and why did they put a track bar on those? the leafs alight the axle horizontally as well as vertically.

So, I just did some reading on this, apparently on the prior to 05 SDs, ford switched to a softer bushing in the eye of the leaf springs to provide a comfy ride (who ever would think that would be a good idea, and damnit, it's a truck, and a big one, so what if it rides like a big truck?).

This softer bushing allowed play in the suspension and BAM, death wobble. so the track bar was there to reduce the play allowed by these bushings. Stupid damn idea.
 

OX1

Well-Known Member
First Name
Jim
Joined
May 25, 2017
Threads
45
Messages
1,311
Reaction score
1,299
Location
jackson nj
Vehicle(s)
59 Bird, 70, 74, 78, 79 Broncos, 84 LTD 331 w/Vortech, 86 Capri 5.0 turbo, 14 Stang GT, 17 Fusion Sport
Your Bronco Model
Undecided
Haha. Apparently you’ve never looked under a pre-05 super duty.
Yeah, talk about suspension bind, never understood that deal.......

Lots of super duty guys report the same issue. I’ve never experienced it though on my early bronco, F350, or F450.
Been a thing with big tires and even slightly loose track bar/mount/bushings, etc..., ever since the first bronco rolled out..........

Werd. I wish my coyote was built like the 2.7... those rods are massive by comparisson. I'd be able to run a lot more boost on the 'yote. All of Ford's powertrains are great choices (except for maybe the 1.6 and 2.0 in the ST due to the weight of the bronco), so I'm not too worried about it... But I do think they are missing the boat on not offering a 5.0 from a "we got something wrangler doesn't" perspective.

I liked my pentastar, I love my 4.0 i6, but would take a 2.3, 2.7, 3.5, 5.0, 6.2, 7.3 over either one of those :)
I'm trapping 126 with 10 PSI on a 14 GT. Can't use even a hint of that instant torque, even with a sticky 295 street tire.
New GT's are running 7-800WHP without rod issues, so not sure what you might be doing with even half that in a bronco.
 

Sponsored

JimmyDean

Badlands
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2019
Threads
13
Messages
1,744
Reaction score
4,071
Location
Louisiana
Vehicle(s)
82 Bronco, 513 ci; 71 mach 1, 351C; 06 F-250, 6.0; 56 800, 172c.i. gas
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
This.

Death wobble isn't so much a solid axle "flaw" as it is a result of piss-poor maintenance and poor suspension geometry resulting from crappy modifications.

I have never experienced death wobble on one of my personal vehicles, but then again I actually replace tie rods, ball joints, and bushings as needed long before things get to the point of death wobble. Oh, and I use a torque wrench for damn near everything.
yeah, I've only had the issue on an older bike of mine, and once it happened without being forcefully induced, I parked it and rebuilt the triple tree.
 

OX1

Well-Known Member
First Name
Jim
Joined
May 25, 2017
Threads
45
Messages
1,311
Reaction score
1,299
Location
jackson nj
Vehicle(s)
59 Bird, 70, 74, 78, 79 Broncos, 84 LTD 331 w/Vortech, 86 Capri 5.0 turbo, 14 Stang GT, 17 Fusion Sport
Your Bronco Model
Undecided
This.

Death wobble isn't so much a solid axle "flaw" as it is a result of piss-poor maintenance and poor suspension geometry resulting from crappy modifications.

I have never experienced death wobble on one of my personal vehicles, but then again I actually replace tie rods, ball joints, and bushings as needed long before things get to the point of death wobble. Oh, and I use a torque wrench for damn near everything.
Older 78/79's had issues egging out stock shock bracket that doubled as track bar bracket.

It helps mitigate bump steer in addition to restricting lateral movement for surer handling, but yes, it does cause bind if you are looking for maximum articulation.
Bump steer almost impossible on a suspension that barely moved.
 
Last edited:

Fosters

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2018
Threads
0
Messages
170
Reaction score
167
Location
Phoenix AZ
Vehicle(s)
2019 Ford F450 2018 Mustang eb premium vert, 2013 Mustang 6A, 2004 mustang gt, 2001 Jeep Cherokee, 2019 Can-Am Maverick Sport X RC
Your Bronco Model
Undecided
I'm trapping 126 with 10 PSI on a 14 GT. Can't use even a hint of that instant torque, even with a sticky 295 street tire.
New GT's are running 7-800WHP without rod issues, so not sure what you might be doing with even half that in a bronco.
I'm at 8.5psi on a 13; more to come once i do the OPGs. It's an auto with a 3700 stall, and yeah, you even look at the gas pedal the wrong way and it's sideways, on 325/50/15 DRs. The Bronco would be 4x4 tho... would be a lot of pissed off tesla owners!
 

OX1

Well-Known Member
First Name
Jim
Joined
May 25, 2017
Threads
45
Messages
1,311
Reaction score
1,299
Location
jackson nj
Vehicle(s)
59 Bird, 70, 74, 78, 79 Broncos, 84 LTD 331 w/Vortech, 86 Capri 5.0 turbo, 14 Stang GT, 17 Fusion Sport
Your Bronco Model
Undecided
I'm at 8.5psi on a 13; more to come once i do the OPGs. It's an auto with a 3700 stall, and yeah, you even look at the gas pedal the wrong way and it's sideways, on 325/50/15 DRs. The Bronco would be 4x4 tho... would be a lot of pissed off tesla owners!
Yeah, that would be fun, although I've heard 7th gear on the 10 speeds start to have issues around that power.
Granted you are probably not banging 7th until 80-90, so could be a non issue on a bronco.
 

BroncoMike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Threads
5
Messages
681
Reaction score
1,167
Location
Upper Norwegia
Vehicle(s)
'71 Bronco, '02 Excursion
Your Bronco Model
Undecided
Older 78/79's had issues egging out stock shock bracket that doubled as track bar bracket.



Bump steer almost impossible on a suspension that barely moved.
Having had some F250/350/Excursion front ends apart, I can't imagine running one without a track bar. I'd love to swap to a coil 4-link on my Excursion, but it is more than adequate for its intended purpose.

Why are we talking about suspension articulation on 3/4 ton and larger trucks anyways?
 

Sponsored

JimmyDean

Badlands
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2019
Threads
13
Messages
1,744
Reaction score
4,071
Location
Louisiana
Vehicle(s)
82 Bronco, 513 ci; 71 mach 1, 351C; 06 F-250, 6.0; 56 800, 172c.i. gas
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
Having had some F250/350/Excursion front ends apart, I can't imagine running one without a track bar. I'd love to swap to a coil 4-link on my Excursion, but it is more than adequate for its intended purpose.

Why are we talking about suspension articulation on 3/4 ton and larger trucks anyways?
Because we are talking about IFS vs SFA? and Ford's only SFA stateside for decades has been in the 3/4 and up market.

and we could use this as a relative comparison of SFA vs IFS, as there are direct competitors in the market that use IFS, and are very clearly not as capable or as strong as the drivetrain of the Fords.
 

Fosters

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2018
Threads
0
Messages
170
Reaction score
167
Location
Phoenix AZ
Vehicle(s)
2019 Ford F450 2018 Mustang eb premium vert, 2013 Mustang 6A, 2004 mustang gt, 2001 Jeep Cherokee, 2019 Can-Am Maverick Sport X RC
Your Bronco Model
Undecided
Because we are talking about IFS vs SFA? and Ford's only SFA stateside for decades has been in the 3/4 and up market.

and we could use this as a relative comparison of SFA vs IFS, as there are direct competitors in the market that use IFS, and are very clearly not as capable or as strong as the drivetrain of the Fords.
cat=107&_nc_ohc=_hZnsKyIkcIAQmTEWtlcz9tlqYTT5ai7pN9l4kn2Wyl6ia1keiFPE3oSw&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.jpg
 

BroncoMike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Threads
5
Messages
681
Reaction score
1,167
Location
Upper Norwegia
Vehicle(s)
'71 Bronco, '02 Excursion
Your Bronco Model
Undecided
Because we are talking about IFS vs SFA? and Ford's only SFA stateside for decades has been in the 3/4 and up market.

and we could use this as a relative comparison of SFA vs IFS, as there are direct competitors in the market that use IFS, and are very clearly not as capable or as strong as the drivetrain of the Fords.
I agree that's all we have to compare it to, but it's a poor comparison. The purpose of a traditional modern factory-designed 3/4 ton and above is generally towing and heavier load capacity. So in reference to the short travel comment, the suspension in a 3/4 ton truck has little parallel to SFA in a high-articulation application. Sure, they both employ a straight axle, but the application is vastly different - limited travel, heavy springs. A track bar with leaf springs improves road manners, with little impact on extreme articulation... in a stock setting/intended use envelope, there isn't any "extreme" articulation. Anyone can bolt different springs underneath that platform and change the purpose, but the rest of the system can't remain the same under that scenario.

Sure, we can compare 3/4 ton suspensions to 3/4 ton suspensions... but that doesn't tell us a lot about suspensions for an entirely different application. While I'm an SFA fan for the capability it provides, perhaps there is good reason Jeep is the only manufacturer to run with SFA in what is increasingly a passenger vehicle. They are the outlier in the off-road performance category because of the compromises they make in favor of that capability.
 

TeocaliMG

Badlands
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Threads
18
Messages
876
Reaction score
2,843
Location
Plymouth Michigan
Website
www.brokeninnovation.com
Vehicle(s)
2021 Bronco Badlands non-sas 4 door manual
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
Clubs
 
Correction
The vehicle YOU desire is “not the vehicle for enthusiasts”
Fact: Ford has been making your dream vehicle (minus removable top) for many years in other markets.
Mostly stayed out of this lately but this is just false. You have been on the forum long enough to know how much all of us have discussed IN DETAIL what makes a good off roader. The Everest, though a decent little Ute, does not get that list half complete disregarding even the suspension! Come on now.
 

TeocaliMG

Badlands
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Threads
18
Messages
876
Reaction score
2,843
Location
Plymouth Michigan
Website
www.brokeninnovation.com
Vehicle(s)
2021 Bronco Badlands non-sas 4 door manual
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
Clubs
 
Good thing you repeated it.
Seriously, I have quieted down a lot recently with the understanding that I should have never even joined the forum lol!

In the words of the great Papa Pizza Sweats: "STAY TUNED"

Sponsored

 
 


Top