7th Gen 2030 Bronco Coming End of 2029, Together With Electric Bronco EV (TE1 Platform)

[RHeinz]

Not really. There is unlikely to be a magic battery made that will be an actual replacement for distance and/or the ease of filling a gas tank quickly.

YES! But it’s not only a battery issue, but how your going to cram 120 kWh of electrical energy (a current efficient energy ”volume” to go 350 miles according to Tesla) into a battery in less than 10 minutes (predicted by some battery makers). There are physical limits here.

Even overnight charging at home realistically requires 240 VAC @ 50 amp electrical service. Many home electrical systems are currently unable to support this. I think that most people think that you can use a computer sized charging system simply plugged into a 120 volt outlet. How many of you have 50 amp service available in your garage or driveway? Those that have welders….

To charge a vehicle battery quickly, like in 10 minutes, with 3 phase, 480 VAC power available (not possible in your home), would require electrical service with around 1200 amp capacity. Just for grins, I checked the pricing on a 480 VAC 1200 amp circuit breaker….$35,000 each!!…just the circuit breaker itself, nothing else! The wiring and plug to support this would be too heavy to for most people to handle manually, not to mention the cost. Using higher voltage is certainly possible but becomes a lot harder and more expensive to work on and comes with serious safety concerns.

Energy = Energy. There is no magic or a free ride here. Gasoline and diesel are incredible mobile energy sources.

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[RHeinz]

One guy charging an electrical vehicle in a neighborhood is not an issue. Problem B (or maybe it’s C, D, or E) is that if everyone in a neighborhood is charging an electric vehicle (or 2), the electrical supply infrastructure for that neighborhood will probably be over it’s capacity.

 

[NinjahGoose]

One guy charging an electrical vehicle in a neighborhood is not an issue. Problem B (or maybe it’s C, D, or E) is that if everyone in a neighborhood is charging an electric vehicle (or 2), the electrical supply infrastructure for that neighborhood will probably be over it’s capacity.

Which is why the US need to get off their ass and start leading in technology again. Most electrical grids haven't been upgraded since the 50's. These power companies need to stop being so greedy, pay their employees real money, invest in modern designs, and plan for the future by upgrading infrastructure. Instead they just pay their corporate overlords millions upon millions.

As for your other post, gasoline and diesel burned in a car/truck is incredible inefficient with only about 1/3 of the energy going to moving the vehicle. EV's are the future, it's probably going to take 20 years for them to be really mainstream but it's going to happen. People who argue against it have the same mentality as those who refused to believe cars would replace the horse.

 

[JBlanco]

I never said that. I said that EV’s are not for everyone because of their limited range and charge times. That is not an opinion it is a physical reality. Keep up.

Keeping up with your ramblings is a full time job...

 

[PrepVet]

Keeping up with your ramblings is a full time job...

Odd, show me one ramble. Every post been congruent and correct. If you can't understand it that's on you.

 

[RHeinz]

Currently EV users do not pa

Which is why the US need to get off their ass and start leading in technology again. Most electrical grids haven't been upgraded since the 50's. These power companies need to stop being so greedy, pay their employees real money, invest in modern designs, and plan for the future by upgrading infrastructure. Instead they just pay their corporate overlords millions upon millions.

As for your other post, gasoline and diesel burned in a car/truck is incredible inefficient with only about 1/3 of the energy going to moving the vehicle. EV's are the future, it's probably going to take 20 years for them to be really mainstream but it's going to happen. People who argue against it have the same mentality as those who refused to believe cars would replace the horse.

Thanks. I never have argued against it. Under many circumstances, like a daily commute, for example, it will probably become mainstream.

I only want to point out that Energy in = Energy out - inefficiency (generally heat).

kwh = kWh and watts = watts. There is no magic.

I checked out the Hyundai site to get their EV specs. They claim they can charge “guickly” with there “700 volt charging system”. No mention of what kw capacity you need to feed this system. So unless it itself can store energy (like in batteries) you still have to provide the actual kilowatts of capacity to it. Or the total kilowatt hours it needs to be ready to charge the vehicle, like a Power Wall.

I was in the power generation business for over 40 years. The US had the best electrical system in the world without question. That is until it was deregulated and became a for profit business. No one seemed to be responsible for the system reliability, only for making their own profit.

EV’s, solar generation and wind generation are highly subsidized by the government. In fact I have read that the “green generation” can be provided to the grid for free since the generating companies can make their profits off the subsidies. This really screws the other generators that aren’t subsidized.

Folks driving EV’s currently do not pay a gasoline tax which helps maintain our roadway infrastructure. They contribute nothing to this, another government subsidy.

What’s going to happen when the subsidies disappear? Anyone believe the price of electricity is going to stay the same? Will it be in such short supply that 24 hour continuous electrical power will be a thing of the past. Our “grid” probably needs to double its capacity in the next 10 years but nothing substantial is being done.

The Chinese are building coal based generation as fast as they can to keep up with this. Not only is the US doing nothing, but the power plant engineering and expertise that this country had, has retired. The last large coal fired generating facilities were built over 30 years ago. It will be a slow process to get it back, or we hire Chinese or Indian companies to do it for us.

 

[bstoked]

How does that fast charging affect the life of the battery?

Is it possible to share a video of this? (obviously without doxing yourself or revealing any IP) Would be cool to see that charge % going up and up and up.

The lithium ion polymer batteries are conservatively anticipated to last around 15 years, but our tests are more focused around charge time and composition vs. battery life cycle. Fortunately LI batteries can be completely recycled now so I think in the future they can be regenerated as new. We have 7 different metal compounds that we are testing that could drastically change the life-cycle as we move towards more solid state and denser tech. For the research I've been involved with, the challenge right now is the balance of how much voltage we can run into the batteries without risk of overheating and critical failure. Our research has three variables- the battery composition, the charging cable itself, and the charging station voltage. We now have enough data that we can run cables into an AI computer to replicate the battery and take the test to the point of failure (without blowing up the lab- lol!).

Probably way more than you care to know, but I'm super excited about the research and think it's pretty cool. It'll be here as a reality before we know it and the race to a sub 10-minute charge is something that's here and now. For some more info there is a great website that highlights some of this research and trends in EVs: https://www.greencars.com/news/the-future-of-fast-charge-electric-car-batteries

 

[RHeinz]

Good discussion, thanks.

My issue has never been about the batteries. No doubt they are going to improve. My issue is that batteries are not an energy source, they only store energy. They have to be charged.

Going by Teslas most efficient “numbers”, to go 100 miles requires 24 kwh. If you want your vehicle to have a range of 300 miles, it will require that the batteries store 75 kwh of energy. To charge that battery in 1 hour would take 75 kw or 75,000 watts. If you want to get 75 kwh of energy into a battery in 10 minutes (1/6 of an hour) is going to take a charge rate of 6 X 75 kw or 450,000 watts. These numbers don’t include any inefficiencies.

To produce 450,000 watts with your home’s 240 VAC, 1 phase service, requires 1875 amps.

For comparison purposes, my home has 200 amp service to it at 240 VAC, single phase. So producing electrical flows of 1875 amps @ 240 VAC is several orders of magnitude impossible.

EDIT: Oops, Teslas most efficient vehicle requires 34 kwh to go 100 miles, not 24, so my power estimates are conservatively very low…. I‘m not sure anyone has a midsized vehicle that will go 100 miles on 24 kwh.

 

[MnLakeBum]

Lets say you work an 8 hour work day and commute to and from work in about an hour-that is 10 hours a day that you can't charge.

So your telling me that you can't plug your car in overnight (9PM-6AM lets say) which works out to 9 hours of charging time at level 2 charging (typical charger at home), in which can recharge a battery (from 0%) in about 4-10 hours?

First off you'd never let it get that low and you'd be required to charge it maybe 1-2x times a week, depending on how far you drive.

I have chargers at two homes. One charges at 36 miles per hour and the other one is on a 100 amp breaker and charges at about 57 miles per hour. They both slow down for that last 10-15% of charge but I can go from 0 to 200 miles(about 85% charge) on the faster one in less that 4 hours. One of the big advantages of an electric is I’ve only needed more that its 200 mile range a handful of time in the last 5 years so on average I only need to stop at a Supercharger about once a year. Al the other Charging is at home.

 

[JBlanco]

Good discussion, thanks.

My issue has never been about the batteries. No doubt they are going to improve. My issue is that batteries are not an energy source, they only store energy. They have to be charged.

Going by Teslas most efficient “numbers”, to go 100 miles requires 24 kwh. If you want your vehicle to have a range of 300 miles, it will require that the batteries store 75 kwh of energy. To charge that battery in 1 hour would take 75 kw or 75,000 watts. If you want to get 75 kwh of energy into a battery in 10 minutes (1/6 of an hour) is going to take a charge rate of 6 X 75 kw or 450,000 watts. These numbers don’t include any inefficiencies.

To produce 450,000 watts with your home’s 240 VAC, 1 phase service, requires 1875 amps.

For comparison purposes, my home has 200 amp service to it at 240 VAC, single phase. So producing electrical flows of 1875 amps @ 240 VAC is several orders of magnitude impossible.

Why would you want to charge 300 miles in 10 minutes at home when your car sits idle for hours? The reality of you arriving at home with an empty battery and immediately needing to go on a road trip are slim to none. Even if you do, all you need is enough battery to get to the nearest supercharger.
Even at 32 amps, you can likely have a full charge overnight.

 

[JBlanco]

I have chargers at two homes. One charges at 36 miles per hour and the other one is on a 100 amp breaker and charges at about 57 miles per hour. They both slow down for that last 10-15% of charge but I can go from 0 to 200 miles(about 85% charge) on the faster one in less that 4 hours. One of the big advantages of an electric is I’ve only needed more that its 200 mile range a handful of time in the last 5 years so on average I only need to stop at a Supercharger about once a year. Al the other Charging is at home.

Honest question, if you were to do it all over again or you had installation restrictions, would you say that the 36 miles per hour charger is enough?

 

[MnLakeBum]

Honest question, if you were to do it all over again or you had installation restrictions, would you say that the 36 miles per hour charger is enough?

It is because I now only drive the Tesla about 14k miles per year which is just a few hundred miles each week so only about 8 hours of charge time each week. Most nights I plug it in so I start out with a 200 mile range each day. If I drove it 25,000 miles a year I’d go with the faster 80 amp charger(100amp breaker) that I have at our northern MN home. If I was driving 35,000 miles/year like I used to or more than 250 miles a day a few times a month, I’m not sure I would want electric unless it had something like a 350 mile range which the new version of my Tesla does.

My wife drives a Range Rover diesel and I’ll always have to have something like that for towing. The current BEV’s like the Ford F-150 Lightning have about 1/3 the towing range of our Rover. Unacceptable in my book especially when I’ll be dragging a 25’ boat 1900 miles south each fall and back north again each spring. In my diesel I can do the drive comfortably in 3 days and in a Lightning it would take at least 5 days and I’m not sure the chargers available for Fords(non-Tesla) are currently spaced properly where even 5 days would be enough.

 

[RHeinz]

Why would you want to charge 300 miles in 10 minutes at home when your car sits idle for hours? The reality of you arriving at home with an empty battery and immediately needing to go on a road trip are slim to none. Even if you do, all you need is enough battery to get to the nearest supercharger.
Even at 32 amps, you can likely have a full charge overnight.

Thanks for posting the chart. My point exactly.

To add and additional 100 amps of service to a home in many cases will require a complete new electrical service entrance, including the electrical suppliers equipment.

100 amp service will provide 24 kw per hour or 24 kwh.

 

[MnLakeBum]

Thanks for posting the chart. My point exactly.

To add and additional 100 amps of service to a home in many cases will require a complete new electrical service entrance, including the electrical suppliers equipment.

100 amp service will provide 24 kw per hour or 24 kwh.

It’s also easier on the batteries to charge at a slower rate. I can charge at our lake home at 80 amps but I often set it to charge at 40 amps as I can do a full charge in about 5 hours at that rate and I’m sleeping anyway.

 

[DryYourTears]

Good discussion, thanks.

My issue has never been about the batteries. No doubt they are going to improve. My issue is that batteries are not an energy source, they only store energy. They have to be charged.

Going by Teslas most efficient “numbers”, to go 100 miles requires 24 kwh. If you want your vehicle to have a range of 300 miles, it will require that the batteries store 75 kwh of energy. To charge that battery in 1 hour would take 75 kw or 75,000 watts. If you want to get 75 kwh of energy into a battery in 10 minutes (1/6 of an hour) is going to take a charge rate of 6 X 75 kw or 450,000 watts. These numbers don’t include any inefficiencies.

To produce 450,000 watts with your home’s 240 VAC, 1 phase service, requires 1875 amps.

For comparison purposes, my home has 200 amp service to it at 240 VAC, single phase. So producing electrical flows of 1875 amps @ 240 VAC is several orders of magnitude impossible.

EDIT: Oops, Teslas most efficient vehicle requires 34 kwh to go 100 miles, not 24, so my power estimates are conservatively very low…. I‘m not sure anyone has a midsized vehicle that will go 100 miles on 24 kwh.

Instead of calculating and assuming, I just looked up specs on some commercial-grade fast chargers. In general, it looks like they take input of ~480V 3-phase to supply up to ~950v DC (which provides the 300-350kw charging speed, which is currently about the max available).

So yeah, you're not installing that at your house and there is no need to - these are DC fast chargers for when you're on the road and are just pulling in to "fuel up", hit the bathroom, and grab a snack. For the rest of the time a standard AC fast charger will do the job when you're at home and your car sits all night.

I have no idea how the tech is being developed but I could see things like local slower battery storage near DC chargers to help offset peak demand times, and then they can recover off-hours, to help ease demand on the grid. That is, until the grid gets upgraded, and with incentive (the demand existing), it will.

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