Bronco vs Electric Pickup

[CapeBadlands]

Ditch the Rivian and get the All Electric Ford F150.

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[atimberwolf]

OP I'd ask your question to the EV folks sitting on I95 in VA since yesterday. How many of them still have a battery keeping them warm? How many of those EVs will need towed or moved to get traffic flowing again?

Obviously I'm not all in on the EV train. Nothing wrong with them as commuters in a city, but as a rural guy with no interest in urban life, they don't fit. Until you can you charge them in the field while I hunt/fish, or get me to my family 6-18 hours away without adding tons of time to stop places and charge them. I won't be buying one, they just don't fit a rural landscape.

 

[mlcinema]

So, I am 100% in love with the Bronco. No idea when mine will ever go into production. I also have a preorder from a Rivian Pickup (R1T) Launch Edition which my delivery window is this June. I think I prefer to have the Bronco and if it were offered in hybrid or full electric it would be a no brainer for me. Electric seems to have many advantages of ICE (and many disadvantages too) that I like (and all of these things are debatable).

Advantages to Electric: better for the environment, never have to visit a gas station or car dealership again unless for maintenance, can charge up to 300 miles for $12 bucks, instant torque, 0-60 in 3 seconds, state of the art. Cost of ownership is less over a longer period of time.

Disadvantages to Electric: Can't fill up anywhere in 5 minutes or less, can't fix what I don't understand, network of dealerships that I can take the car to for service is very limited that is, until the Lighting comes out.

Clearly the infrastructure is not ready for all electric but it seems like buying a gas car TODAY is like buying a VHS when Blu-Rays are out. Especially if some of us aren't going to see a Bronco for another year and at which point Ford may be offering an electric version since they want to be what seems like the new Tesla in terms of electric sales. I hate to think that my new 55K Bronco will be outdated in 2 years with all these new electric cars and trucks.

The other thing I am thinking about is best value for my money. The Rivian (or Lighting) can be had for about $75K (-$7,500 tax credit or hopefully to to $12,000 in rebates at point of sale if the laws pass) and are state-of-the-art and fully loaded. That puts the pricing of them within that of a loaded Bronco.

So i guess here is where my question is....what do you guys do in terms of best value for your money if you are between an electric pickup or a Bronco? Anybody else in this camp? I like both the Rivian and Bronco because they are marketed as adventure ready and thats really want I want. Anybody seen any good pictures of the two cars side by side?

I have nothing to add except that I saw my first Rivian yesterday. Looked really nice in person. I would love to have one, but I can’t afford their prices. Good luck!

 

[AK SNO RIDER]

I don't understand the question. Wtf am I gonna do with an electric car

But in all seriousness, an EV just wouldn't work for me. The Bronco needs to be able to go to the middle of nowhere and back and an EV just can't do that. A Bronco and an EV aren't even in the same realm as each other to me.

And while I don't hate EVs by any means, it think we are switching to them too soon. The "saving the planet" people are full of shit, current tech really isn't all that great and IMO we are just burning up resources on them right now. Lithium mines are disgusting and it is in no way a renewable resource.

I would like to see hydrogen EVs pursued more seriously.

 

[MayhemMike]

So one buys an EV. It can truly only be used as a daily commuter and errand runner. If you live on a city street and have no private parking ,you won’t be able to charge your vehicle at your residence since the charging rigs will be stolen. You pay more for an EV then a comparable ICE . This additional cost would pay for several years of gasoline. You own the EV for five or six years, then you go to sell it. No one wants it because it is about to reach the battery life, and new batteries are a several thousand expense. Value loss is extreme. Make no mistake, I wish most of the vehicles could be EV powered by some form of clean electricity, with batteries that were 100% recyclable, and recharged in ten minutes or less. For the most part, EV‘s are being bought by folks with money as a “ look at what I got” thing or environmental zealots. Good for those folks. Enjoy! Being retired, an EV fails to meet any of my requirements. I seldom purchase fuel, and when I do it is for an extended road trip that could not be accomplished in any comparable time by an EV. I wonder if the hearse that eventually transports my corpse will be an EV?

 

[FastAndLight]

OP I'd ask your question to the EV folks sitting on I95 in VA since yesterday. How many of them still have a battery keeping them warm? How many of those EVs will need towed or moved to get traffic flowing again?

The people on the Rivian forums are doing that as well. https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/rivian-r1-endurance-during-winter-emergencies.3265/

I'm in Georgia and there was a huge ice storm here a few years ago that had people abandoning their cars on the highway, and almost all of those were ICE vehicles.There are plenty of people cruising around without enough gas in their tank ( or electrons in their battery) to sit idle in a climate conditioned vehicle for 12+ hours.

 

[atimberwolf]

The people on the Rivian forums are doing that as well. https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/rivian-r1-endurance-during-winter-emergencies.3265/

I'm in Georgia and there was a huge ice storm here a few years ago that had people abandoning their cars on the highway, and almost all of those were ICE vehicles.There are plenty of people cruising around without enough gas in their tank ( or electrons in their battery) to sit idle in a climate conditioned vehicle for 12+ hours.

Yeah, you still have to plan for what you're faced with. No vehicle will do that for you. There's a quote on a website I like, "No one is coming, it's up to us."

Gas and electric vehicles have there advantages/disadvantages. For many rural people an EV just won't work as well as ICE. That scenario changes in a city where you have far more infrastructure and less distances to cover while recharging your batteries as you ride the brakes.

EVs and the belief they are significantly better for the environment are a myth in my eyes. We simply moved all the development off our shores and on to someone else's back. Those strip mines pollute their water and land and allow us to be "carbon neutral" since it isn't happening here. Those trace minerals come get mined somewhere and those batteries will all be dumped in a landfill eventually. It reminds me of people who prefer to eat meat from a store. They'll ignore how a cow lives and hate on hunters.

 

[FastAndLight]

and those batteries will all be dumped in a landfill eventually.

There is recycling for Lithium Ion batteries. If you are throwing batteries out in the trash you are doing it wrong. Some groups are claiming up to 96% efficiency. There are smart people thinking about these problems because there is a huge market being created to recycle batteries. The companies that can do it well will make some good money.

As for rural usage, I'm sure at the dawn of the automobile era there weren't gas stations out in rural areas. Obviously that changed eventually. Also, 55% of American's live in the suburbs, according to a 2020 Pew study. City parking and charging presents problems, but the short distances covered also may prove advantageous for BEV / PHEVs. That said, most cities have street lights, parking meters, etc., so its not like its that hard to envision possible solutions to these challenges as well.

Gas won't be going away for 50 years or more, I'm sure, but the next 10 years or so are going to be pretty wild while we ride the steep part of the innovation curve in this space.

 

[atimberwolf]

There is recycling for Lithium Ion batteries. If you are throwing batteries out in the trash you are doing it wrong. Some groups are claiming up to 96% efficiency. There are smart people thinking about these problems because there is a huge market being created to recycle batteries. The companies that can do it well will make some good money.

As for rural usage, I'm sure at the dawn of the automobile era there weren't gas stations out in rural areas. Obviously that changed eventually. Also, 55% of American's live in the suburbs, according to a 2020 Pew study. City parking and charging presents problems, but the short distances covered also may prove advantageous for BEV / PHEVs. That said, most cities have street lights, parking meters, etc., so its not like its that hard to envision possible solutions to these challenges as well.

Gas won't be going away for 50 years or more, I'm sure, but the next 10 years or so are going to be pretty wild while we ride the steep part of the innovation curve in this space.

Concur. Your assessment of rural America being behind when cars came about is obviously true.

Shoot I've done volunteer work in Appalachia were people still don't have running water.

And there are countless examples of us still "missing out" on the latest technology. It's the cross we bear. But having lived in cities on both coasts for many years as part of my job, I'm fine getting back to the friendlier atmosphere of rural America.

It's great to hear there are options on the batteries, although I hope it's not like the 95% of a wind mill that can be recycled. They seem leave out the 5% is the 200-280 foot tall turbine blades that are prone to wear and damage and have to be buried.

 

[AZ_BRONC]

Interesting discussion I’m having often with my brother, who has a Rivian reservation, and myself as a Bronco buyer. We grew up in a dealership family and he currently drives a Land Rover while I drive a 4Runner. I’m a desert, mountain and city driver and he owns two rural, 5-7 acre homes in the mountains in N. AZ and flat farmland IL.

I‘m not against environmentalism and new tech. I love it. I got a full ride scholarship for my Masters for my interest and work in solar design in AZ. I was a beta tester for Waymo driverless cars and can still often be found riding alone in the back seat while my Waymo robot car takes me where I need to go in Tempe. I just got a hybrid 2022 Camry for my 21 year old. 50+ mpg in expensive gas CA is a beautiful thing.

I believe electric or hybrid are the future. That said, I don’t see electric being the future for the market the Bronco falls into for a long time. If you are going to drive it as a “pavement Princess”, maybe. But if you need the capabilities and technology the Wrangler, Bronco, 4Runner or Land Rover give you, gasoline is the way to go.

Earlier comments about environmentalism and electric vehicles are correct. Batteries are a looming environmental disaster, from mining to storage to disposal. Much of the mining is in parts of the world without much regulation, and rare earth metals mining requires a lot of earth displacement and water. The electricity to charge batteries still mostly generates via fossil fuel burning, and solar and other “earth-friendly” power sources are far from ready and bring environmental damages of their own. Nuclear remains a political football.

I think the Bronco may be one of the last great gas guzzlers designed, as the car companies are certainly moving towards electric, by both choice and government force. But niches will remain for the proven combustion engine, and I think off-road capability is possibly the biggest niche of them all.

Lastly, I think much of the Rivian design looks awful. Personal preference but I’ve spoken to a lot of people who agree. I haven’t come across anyone who doesn’t think Ford nailed it with the Bronco design. My son’s roommate just got a job working engineering on the Rivian interiors at the old Mitsubishi plant in Normal, IL. Hopefully he improves it!

 

[BUCKNUT1]

Clearly the infrastructure is not ready for all electric but it seems like buying a gas car TODAY is like buying a VHS when Blu-Rays are out. Especially if some of us aren't going to see a Bronco for another year and at which point Ford may be offering an electric version since they want to be what seems like the new Tesla in terms of electric sales. I hate to think that my new 55K Bronco will be outdated in 2 years with all these new electric cars and trucks.

Your "new 55K Bronco" may be "outdated' in a few years, but there will be a market for ICE vehicles. The day Ford announces no new ICE vehicles the dealerships will be full of customers trying to buy the last of them.

 

[BrentC]

I preordered the R1T November 2020. My thing is once you factor in the tax credit or rebate both are almost the same price with the Rivian being slightly more but once you factor in never having to go to a gas station again or do oil changes after 3? years they become equally and than you are ahead going all electric.

I suggest you consider all true costs of BEVs before making your decision. How long will subsidies last (not forever); when will the mileage tax be imposed (roads are built and maintained primarily upon tax revenue of fuel at the pump at time of purchase); how much the replacement battery will cost in 8 years’ time, what is the depreciation on a BEV given said battery lifecycle, etc.

Costs of lithium, copper, REE, cadmium etc. have all skyrocketed as demand has increased. Battery costs WILL go up as mining is required to extract these elements, and they are difficult to produce. Where you live will affect the viability of your choice - if you have cold winters do not depend on a BEV as your sole vehicle. Many examples of how poorly batteries perform in extreme cold, which is widespread this year in the northern hemisphere.

Remember that BEVs are only a percent or two of the total vehicle sales wordwide so it will be many decades (if ever) before you should expect to have ICE-level infrastructure and support for your vehicle.

IMO hybrids are the sweet spot for vehicle longevity and control of urban particulate emission control. If I was forced to buy an electric vehicle by law, I’d want a hybrid.

my .02

 

[BrentC]

Interesting discussion I’m having often with my brother, who has a Rivian reservation, and myself as a Bronco buyer. We grew up in a dealership family and he currently drives a Land Rover while I drive a 4Runner. I’m a desert, mountain and city driver and he owns two rural, 5-7 acre homes in the mountains in N. AZ and flat farmland IL.

I‘m not against environmentalism and new tech. I love it. I got a full ride scholarship for my Masters for my interest and work in solar design in AZ. I was a beta tester for Waymo driverless cars and can still often be found riding alone in the back seat while my Waymo robot car takes me where I need to go in Tempe. I just got a hybrid 2022 Camry for my 21 year old. 50+ mpg in expensive gas CA is a beautiful thing.

I believe electric or hybrid are the future. That said, I don’t see electric being the future for the market the Bronco falls into for a long time. If you are going to drive it as a “pavement Princess”, maybe. But if you need the capabilities and technology the Wrangler, Bronco, 4Runner or Land Rover give you, gasoline is the way to go.

Earlier comments about environmentalism and electric vehicles are correct. Batteries are a looming environmental disaster, from mining to storage to disposal. Much of the mining is in parts of the world without much regulation, and rare earth metals mining requires a lot of earth displacement and water. The electricity to charge batteries still mostly generates via fossil fuel burning, and solar and other “earth-friendly” power sources are far from ready and bring environmental damages of their own. Nuclear remains a political football.

I think the Bronco may be one of the last great gas guzzlers designed, as the car companies are certainly moving towards electric, by both choice and government force. But niches will remain for the proven combustion engine, and I think off-road capability is possibly the biggest niche of them all.

Lastly, I think much of the Rivian design looks awful. Personal preference but I’ve spoken to a lot of people who agree. I haven’t come across anyone who doesn’t think Ford nailed it with the Bronco design. My son’s roommate just got a job working engineering on the Rivian interiors at the old Mitsubishi plant in Normal, IL. Hopefully he improves it!

Kudos - well said.

 

[BTomorama]

Yeah, the Hummer is fugly and I still think Cybertruck is an Elon prank - too hideous to actually produce.

I really really want to like the Rivian, but I just can't get over the horrible front/headlights. It looks like a teenage anime cartoonist designed them because they thought they looked "super kawaii cute!".

 

[BrentC]

…

Don't get an EV if you aren't willing to install a 240v plug and home charge outside of road trips.

…

This is where the costs may begin to climb on the BEV-is-the-future narrative. Many homes may also require a service upgrade in their homes to handle the power requirements of the car charger. And as more homes draw significantly more power needed for car charging, the distribution lines, tranformers and switchgear also require upgrading. More power generation and transmission will be required, which must be designed to handle peak loads in order to avoid widespread blackouts. The national grid is an extremely complicated beast, and keeping it intact and 99.9% available is a tall order. The need for base power generation (not intermitted power generation from wind and solar) will never go away, meaning your ‘green power’ will likely come from natural gas or preferably nuclear generation. It won’t come for free in whatever form it’s needed.

All the infrastructure upgrades don’t come without a cost, and it takes time to build. Land needs to be acquired for power lines and power plants. Mines for copper, aluminum and other battery metals will need to be opened - and the thing greens hate almost as much as fossil fuel production is mining.

With existing power infrastructure there will be a finite amount of BEVs that it can reliably support.

There are many reasons why rapid development of the electric grid infrastructure needed to support widespread adoption of BEVs is decades away. I’m quite comfortable not being an early adopter. Caveat emptor.

Again, all IMO. At any rate, choice is good and I am not trying to diss anyone’s decisions. Be happy with whatever you decide, but make that choice after careful consideration.

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