Question about Theft - RFID blocking protection.

[Pony4x4]

Old timer here - so - I’m not very “Techy”.

I understand that you obviously should not leave your key fob in your Bronco in the garage and you should keep it in an RFID box in the house. Here is what I don’t really understand:

What if you're in a high crime area for vehicle theft - let’s say Vegas and you’re parking in the MGM parking garage where there could be a crew that is specifically targeting car theft and running them back to Los Angeles. You can keep your fob in an RFID pouch in your pocket - but when you have to take your fob out of the pouch to unlock your door and start your vehicle - doesn’t that allow the reception of your specific vehicles “electronic signature” so that they could program a fob to steal your Bronco when you come back to the parking ramp?

Thanks for the expertise!

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[BlinkyLightMgr]

Each fob and vehicle are paired so to program another fob you need access to the vehicle and either both OEM fobs or take it to a dealer/locksmith.

 

[Pony4x4]

Thanks Blinky. So not doubting you - are the companies selling the RFID pouches - boxes - just selling gear that is good for nothing?

 

[Lifeliberty]

The rfid blocking pouch is to limit exposure when you are walking around or in your house. I suspect the criminal needs to be relatively close to clone your key. Otherwise, they could just clone your key remotely as you are driving down the street and follow you to where you park.

I have pouches and a box but I never use them

 

[PlayTime]

Key fobs are matched to the car, and they talk back and forth to the car in a way that's different every time. A thief can't simply record the conversation and play it back. You can't clone a key.

What thieves do do is use a radio booster to extend the range of your key in your house so the car thinks it's right there, and opens up. The RFID pouches and boxes stop the radio snooping and thieves are back to square one again.

Lifeliberty is right, the radio signals are weak and the booster has a very limited range.

Top end, very new tech is starting to use timestamps on the conversation between key and car. If there is a delay, like from a radio relay booster 50 feet away, it protects.

 

[Lifeliberty]

Key fobs are matched to the car, and they talk back and forth to the car in a way that's different every time. A thief can't simply record the conversation and play it back. You can't clone a key.

What thieves do do is use a radio booster to extend the range of your key in your house so the car thinks it's right there, and opens up. The RFID pouches and boxes stop the radio snooping and thieves are back to square one again.

Lifeliberty is right, the radio signals are weak and the booster has a very limited range.

Top end, very new tech is starting to use timestamps on the conversation between key and car. If there is a delay, like from a radio relay booster 50 feet away, it protects.

Thanks, that makes more sense.

 

[Doc TOC]

Lifeliberty is right, the radio signals are weak and the booster has a very limited range.

To augment what PlayTime is stating, current scanners are now using VLA repeater-booster technology with a 1200 feet range. This is effective for attacking individual Fobs against a single vehicle far away and apart (the Lambo sitting in a long driveway). It is less effective at public garages and streets where there are more vehicles to identify which random fob activated it.

The timestamp technology is not broad market technology. Most cars on the road are using the older radio relay tech, which is now relatively easy to hack.

So, the faraday bags/boxes are a decent protection if you are concerned. To be highly effective, it would have to encapsulate your fob 100% of the time, even while using it to drive. But that would interfere with many car's fob presence queries. So, there are trade offs.

Keep in mind this is cold war era radio technology slowly being updated to modern cars. Either enough people have to complain (aka class action lawsuits), enough money lost by insurance companies, or enough vehicle buyers rejecting cars, before the automotive industry will speed things up. It has taken Tesla 17 human deaths to admit there might be a problem with their self-drive software.

 

[Pony4x4]

So the bottom line is it can still be stolen - but it’s difficult. I used Vegas as an example because common sense would tell you there are a lot of exotic vehicles in that crime ridden city and a short drive to LA - where your vehicle will be stripped or shipped.

I’m guessing the Bronco is NOT time stamp technology?

Very helpful - thanks guys!

 

[SeptuagenarianSasquatch]

Related to this issue is an idea for a back-up fob. This calls for a means to enter a locked truck, such as the numeric push-button strip.

Put it in an RFID pouch, then hide it in the truck somewhere. One interesting location is to remove the plastic louvre inside the tail gate, and reinstall it with velcro strips or some other easy-to-pop-off attachment system. If you have the numeral door opener, you can relocate it to inside the gas cover. That unlocks the truck, you open the rear gate, remove the louvre, and you have your backup fob!

Also a place to keep a backup credit card, cash, your wheel-lock key, etc. Maybe a firearm, but bear in mind you're required to lock it, not just hide it, so maybe a lock box or something as well.

In the news lately, the Toronto police have been getting some notice because of a surge in residential car theft. They've walked the statement back somewhat, but they suggested that vehicle owners keep their fobs at the front door so that armed thieves can find them quickly and easily and not endanger the vehicle owners with violence pursuing it inside the home. Maybe a dummy fob would help?

 

[Billy Goat]

A comment about Faraday bags, I purchased a set for the wife and I after watching a security cam post from a neighbor. The video showed a guy walk up to the front door in the middle of the night with a laptop strapped to his chest. He plugged in along cable hung it around front door the car chirped he turned around got in and drove off in about 20 seconds tops. The Faraday bags I purchased were were a popular/recommended set off of Amazon. They work fine on the fob for her car but the Bronco would still transmit when completely encapsulated. I'm thinking I have the long distance remote? In any case, I wound up lining the inside of the key fob with aluminum foil and that cured the problem. I guess I should have spent more on Faraday bags.

 

[mikec426]

Hmmm… I have one of those bags but never tested it.

 

[helifino16]

I believe that I read somewhere that the Ford fob stops transmitting if not moved after (I think) 30 minutes. So unless you're moving it around (like in your pocket), you don't need to store it in a Faraday bag. I wouldn't leave it in the Bronco - you might as well drive it up to a collection of thugs and hand them the keys.

 

[flip]

Lock and unlock with FP app which takes the fob out of the circuit completely if you are concerned about getting grabbed while using. If you remove the chip from the key they can't grab it passively but you'll still need one in a faraday bag you take in and out or somehow line the inside of the center console and leave one in the backup slot. I guess you could take that receiver out, strap a key to it, encase in a faraday bag but then all they need to do is knock out a window, press start and go. You'd have to install a hidden disconnect for the push button to thwart this type of attack.

 

[BlarneyStoned]

I believe that I read somewhere that the Ford fob stops transmitting if not moved after (I think) 30 minutes. So unless you're moving it around (like in your pocket), you don't need to store it in a Faraday bag. I wouldn't leave it in the Bronco - you might as well drive it up to a collection of thugs and hand them the keys.

Based on this video and comments on it, that doesn't seem to be the case:

 

[Johnny Mo]

A comment about Faraday bags, I purchased a set for the wife and I after watching a security cam post from a neighbor. The video showed a guy walk up to the front door in the middle of the night with a laptop strapped to his chest. He plugged in along cable hung it around front door the car chirped he turned around got in and drove off in about 20 seconds tops. The Faraday bags I purchased were were a popular/recommended set off of Amazon. They work fine on the fob for her car but the Bronco would still transmit when completely encapsulated. I'm thinking I have the long distance remote? In any case, I wound up lining the inside of the key fob with aluminum foil and that cured the problem. I guess I should have spent more on Faraday bags.

I picked up a Farady box and pouch set off Amazon and I tried both the pouch and box within inches of my Bronco and it did NOT recognize that the key was there. Typically in the garage, but that doesn't mean someone wouldnt try. Back in the day my cousin had a Lincoln Mark 7 LSC all skirted out and hooked up with booming sound sytem etc - lived in the Morris Park section of the Bronx - used to block his car in the driveway with his mother's car - one day he came out to his car moved from the "blocked in spot" to the street with a note that said if we want it we'll just take it. Eventually it did get stolen and ended up in a chop shop. Moral of the story is - if someone wants it bad enough they will try...some houses are a riskier roll of the dice to try that. pew pew

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