The IFS vs SFA Thread

JimmyDean

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Though I totally agree with this vision from a system engineering perspective, from what I have seen I am not convinced that PD engineering considers much past efficient delivery, low warranty and high initial value to the customer. And Ironically we fail at those more than we should...
for the bread and butter vehicles I would agree, the 4 door sedans, basic CUVs and SUVs. But for either work based vehicles and enthusiast vehicles that's not the case. That would the f-series, broncos, mustangs, corvettes, etc.

I'll edit to add:

It's not necessarily the vehicles that keep the bills paid that the manufacturer cares about the 2nd or 3rd owner, it's the vehicles that get people to stop in and look, even if they buy that Escape instead of the Bronco Sport, or they buy that fusion instead of the Mustang because they have 2 kids.

It's the vehicle that Ford uses to say : 30million F-150s are still on the road or whatever number they use these days.

It's the vehicle that The company stakes their reputation on, that they care that the second owner or third owner still have a solid experience with it, because seeing that 20 year old mustang still on the road may help get someone else into look at them. (I see 10x more 90s Mustangs on the road than camaros, and while I used to see plenty of F-bodies in comparison to Fox bodies, that is no longer the case. I can't recall the last F-body camaro I've seen, but have see a couple of foxes in the last week (talking about the 80s era iroc style camaro).



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Dads_bronze_bronco

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An argument I've made a bunch of times. Just because it will be new now doesn't mean it will stay that way. Eventually, if we're lucky, most BroncoBroncos will be old and still in use.

That should matter to Ford and most people considering purchasing one.
The “influencer” You Tube channels are a mix of both. I suspect people follow the ones that modify newer vehicles for inspiration - and that drives image of the newer models.
 

BAUS67

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…………………………………...………

I'm not that up on jeeps, but do they really swap out boxes, or just go to a single ram hydro to take pressure off the box?
(another thing you can't do with stock electric steering, without adding hydraulic pressure somehow). Guess someone will come
out with electrosteer using an electric ram to attach to steering links.................

You can do both and it would take me nearly a page to describe it all, but go to this page and this is the best on the market IMO

https://www.pscmotorsports.com/

A little while back we took a 200 mile JL and took off the electronic steering and installed PSC hydraulic conversion because the customer didn't like the "feel" of the electronic stuff. I thought why not just buy an older (low mileage) model that had hydraulic steer. But that's me.

PSC has assist for the stock box or full on hydro steer. Mild to Wild.
 

BAUS67

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Alright there is a lot to unpack here, we are getting a little away from my initial inquiry but that's okay! First let me start with contesting that this poor mans rig is notably superior off-road for anything other than shredding a mud hole or maybe, if he did good enough work, a rock garden. (notice I said, notably superior, its obviously more capable then a stock rig, but by what margin?) And if he did do such excellent work then he is obviously a pretty competent fabricator! (this is good to hear). Regardless, it seems you want to make this a comparison where I need to prove some stock IFS somewhere can be thrown together to meet or beat your exact use case at a competitive price point. You win that comparison, but as I have stated, I am not interested in a specific (relatively simple honestly) use case, I am interested in the platform which offers the greatest array of use cases competently.

With that said, my next hang up is this idea of "stock" parts, yea you are taking a stock axle but what is an axle? It houses your driveline and ties a couple degrees of freedom together. Whats keeping my IFS build from using your same stock axle as a donor? The big ticket item for me is sourcing HD halfshafts which there is no shortage of. After that the only meaningful benefit of "stock parts" is that where you are making or buying radius arms, I am making or buying control arms. Big deal. I can even use the same knuckles, but I would probably fabricate my own, or use H1 portal axles, heck why not use the H1 driveline if I really want to keep it simple? inboard brakes and all. My point is its hard to compare actual "stockness" if we are being honest about where the parts are all coming from. IFS is being way misrepresented here, and the "stockness" of SFA is being given way too much benefit of the doubt. Anyway, where was I? oh yes, so you have GM 1-tons, H1, heck theres even some HD IFS from big trucks (think Oshkosh, SPARTAN etc.) now that would turn a Dana 60 into a twisler. Am I really going to use them though? heck no.

So if those don't prove it to you, and you are willing to wait 5-10 years to see my fabrication come to light I would be delighted to show you how it can be done.

Maybe its not realistic, but I don't like to settle. I am drawn to ultra 4 for example because you have to not only be good at everything, you have to be nearly the best at everything. And the path there is getting more clear every year. To me that embodies off-roading, I want to have a rig that can do just about everything, and do it extremely well! Jack of all trades, and maybe someday, master of them all...

To bring it back to my initial inquiry, it seems we have touched on the few but i'll admit reasonably founded advantages for a stock SFA Bronco when the vision is a fully built HD SFA dream build. I still question if those outweigh the IFS usability/flexibility for everyone interested in 37" or less or 12" travel or less considering all the similar work us IFS or SFA fans have ahead of us on a barely recognizable dream build
I'll try and do this without jumping around ……….. Man buys off-road vehicle to have fun with, knowing he will not be leaving it stock(at least not for very long). Should he buy one that is capable all ready, have some fun till he breaks it, then upgrade it. Go have more fun till it breaks, then fix it and still be able to have fun until you save your pennies till you can fab a custom suspension for the next level. For the most part in the past IFS systems have not been up to the task. IMO. Not to mention NO aftermarket support for just upgrade, just all out race parts that are not feasible for the average off-roader. This is what makes the Wrangler click. Not big $$$$$. Upgrade as you go. Got 35's and the power steering pump goes out. you could go with the hydro assist, new parts to fix what broke and go have fun. Then when it is time to fab you have already upgraded. With most IFS, up till now, has been have what fun you can then when its breaks, not many, if any, upgrades just $$$$ race stuff. Instead of spending the $$$ just sell it and get a Wrangler and have fun.

Now all that being said, that was then and this is now. I don't know of any IFS factory off-roaders that came with 35's stock, until now. So now maybe this will not be as much of a problem as it was in the past. Here is a small sample of the kind of stuff that the IFS of the past would not handle, I know when I would try and have seen many try but the result was never good.


This is just an example many trails harder. Now, lockers and a low transfer case gearing helps as well (the old IFS stuff never had these).
 

frinesi2

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Now all that being said, that was then and this is now. I don't know of any IFS factory off-roaders that came with 35's stock, until now. So now maybe this will not be as much of a problem as it was in the past. Here is a small sample of the kind of stuff that the IFS of the past would not handle, I know when I would try and have seen many try but the result was never good.


This is just an example many trails harder. Now, lockers and a low transfer case gearing helps as well (the old IFS stuff never had these).
So ... I'm pretty sure my Pajero could make it up that trail without too much drama.

No promises but I'll make a note to try it this summer. I've been meaning to try some new places lol. Am I allowed to put on 33s and an inch lift or do I have to do it dead stock?
 

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I'll try and do this without jumping around ……….. Man buys off-road vehicle to have fun with, knowing he will not be leaving it stock(at least not for very long). Should he buy one that is capable all ready, have some fun till he breaks it, then upgrade it. Go have more fun till it breaks, then fix it and still be able to have fun until you save your pennies till you can fab a custom suspension for the next level. For the most part in the past IFS systems have not been up to the task. IMO. Not to mention NO aftermarket support for just upgrade, just all out race parts that are not feasible for the average off-roader. This is what makes the Wrangler click. Not big $$$$$. Upgrade as you go. Got 35's and the power steering pump goes out. you could go with the hydro assist, new parts to fix what broke and go have fun. Then when it is time to fab you have already upgraded. With most IFS, up till now, has been have what fun you can then when its breaks, not many, if any, upgrades just $$$$ race stuff. Instead of spending the $$$ just sell it and get a Wrangler and have fun.

Now all that being said, that was then and this is now. I don't know of any IFS factory off-roaders that came with 35's stock, until now. So now maybe this will not be as much of a problem as it was in the past. Here is a small sample of the kind of stuff that the IFS of the past would not handle, I know when I would try and have seen many try but the result was never good.


This is just an example many trails harder. Now, lockers and a low transfer case gearing helps as well (the old IFS stuff never had these).
I dont fully agree that the IFS aftermarket is useless other than top tier race gear, but obviously the Wrangler support is the gold standard. It is my hope, and honestly my expectation, that Bronco will achieve something like this. As we have pointed out before, there is a very long and critical list (you mentioned some of them) of reasons why others have failed to directly compete with Jeep apart from utilizing IFS (poorly at that). The first and most important upgrade anyone can do to their off roader is bigger and/or better tires. The Bronco for example is already blowing any previous IFS midsize competition out of the water on that alone. It is way easier to do incremental improvements to the chassis when you're not immediately held back by simple tire clearance. Not to mention the potential hand-me down effects of higher trim Broncos (Much like Jeep has already)
 

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I'd like to raise a practical question:

How many "serious rock crawlers (and I mean REAL serious)" are buying brand new vehicles, ripping everything out, and installing beefier axles, versus the number that are buying used vehicles for these mods? And I don't mean how many bought new vs used 15, 20, 30 years ago when we all had money and everything was cheap. I mean within the last, I don't know, 5 years.

And I'll follow up with this question:

Should Ford be selling new vehicles with the 2nd owner in mind?
On any given weekend @ say Rausch Creek in Pa, the number of new jeeps with upgraded axles is staggering.
As I've stated, you can wheel a Wrangler in tight trail or relatively big rock scenarios due to it's overall basic design, that you
will not be able to do with even the new bronco.

Again

Not getting 60" wide body that is great for clearance off camber.
Not getting factory narrowed front end.
Not getting completely bolt on front fenders that lend themselves to easily form-able, beefy replacements.
Not getting virtually flat sheet metal on 1/4's that allow relatively cheap bolt on body armor.

So I would say more than you think............
 

TeocaliMG

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On any given weekend @ say Rausch Creek in Pa, the number of new jeeps with upgraded axles is staggering.
As I've stated, you can wheel a Wrangler in tight trail or relatively big rock scenarios due to it's overall basic design, that you
will not be able to do with even the new bronco.

Again

Not getting 60" wide body that is great for clearance off camber.
Not getting factory narrowed front end.
Not getting completely bolt on front fenders that lend themselves to easily form-able, beefy replacements.
Not getting virtually flat sheet metal on 1/4's that allow relatively cheap bolt on body armor.

So I would say more than you think............
All I have to say to this is "lets see"
 

wjfawb0

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I'll try and do this without jumping around ……….. Man buys off-road vehicle to have fun with, knowing he will not be leaving it stock(at least not for very long). Should he buy one that is capable all ready, have some fun till he breaks it, then upgrade it. Go have more fun till it breaks, then fix it and still be able to have fun until you save your pennies till you can fab a custom suspension for the next level. For the most part in the past IFS systems have not been up to the task. IMO. Not to mention NO aftermarket support for just upgrade, just all out race parts that are not feasible for the average off-roader. This is what makes the Wrangler click. Not big $$$$$. Upgrade as you go. Got 35's and the power steering pump goes out. you could go with the hydro assist, new parts to fix what broke and go have fun. Then when it is time to fab you have already upgraded. With most IFS, up till now, has been have what fun you can then when its breaks, not many, if any, upgrades just $$$$ race stuff. Instead of spending the $$$ just sell it and get a Wrangler and have fun.

Now all that being said, that was then and this is now. I don't know of any IFS factory off-roaders that came with 35's stock, until now. So now maybe this will not be as much of a problem as it was in the past. Here is a small sample of the kind of stuff that the IFS of the past would not handle, I know when I would try and have seen many try but the result was never good.

This is just an example many trails harder. Now, lockers and a low transfer case gearing helps as well (the old IFS stuff never had these).
What you said.

I went out and bought a 2015 JK Wrangler Rubicon for $30k. It was a base, no bluetooth, no u-connect, no power nothing, but it had the rubicon package and the alpine speaker/amp upgrade (well worth it). I immediately started rock crawling it and offroading. All I had to add at first were thick diff covers and welded on steel plates where the control arm and shock mounts hit rocks all the time. I think the spotters and observers cried more over the rock rashed OEM wheels than I did. I bought the thing to offroad, and I also drive it to work everyday. Oh, and BFG KM tires suck in the rain on asphault, but they're really great for offroad other than deep mud.
 

Dads_bronze_bronco

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What you said.

I went out and bought a 2015 JK Wrangler Rubicon for $30k. It was a base, no bluetooth, no u-connect, no power nothing, but it had the rubicon package and the alpine speaker/amp upgrade (well worth it). I immediately started rock crawling it and offroading. All I had to add at first were thick diff covers and welded on steel plates where the control arm and shock mounts hit rocks all the time. I think the spotters and observers cried more over the rock rashed OEM wheels than I did. I bought the thing to offroad, and I also drive it to work everyday. Oh, and BFG KM tires suck in the rain on asphault, but they're really great for offroad other than deep mud.
Yep, exactly, same philosophy (stripped down ‘08 JKUR here), and when something breaks or wears out, you replace it with an upgrade. (I’d just like an engine with more torque and that doesn’t burn a quart of oil every 1500 miles.)
 

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TeocaliMG

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What do mean, we have, haven't we?
Speaking with regard to the Bronco. "Lets see" there are some assumptions right now regarding its dimensions and equipment which are just that, assumptions.
 

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Lots of bitching on the web about the lack of SFA on the Bronco vs IFS

So riddle me this:

If a stock IFS Bronco can do off roading as well or 95% as good as a stock Wrangler, but yet offers a superior on road driving experience...does that change your option?
 

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Really this belongs in the IFS v SFA thread since it's about IFS v SFA.


ETA: looks like @Administrator or someone ninja-moved this to the IFS v SFA thread. Thanks @Administrator or whomever!
 
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