Another Broken Axle / CV Joint

[CMillBronco]

Base model, non-Squatch, only got the M190.

Will be stepping to the M210 once Dana releases their Front Drive Assemblies.

Can you provide more info on your setup, I'm doing same as you with Factory Sas wheels/tires and shocks on my base that was built last week.

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[BaseManSquatch]

So what is the recommendation for those of us that want to lift a non sasquatch and get bigger tires?

I want to get a Big Bend and 35" pizza cutters (LT/255/85R17) and Old Man Emu lift which is 2 inches.

Will I be OK as far as CV joints go?

 

[Snacktime]

Looks like a bad install, someone pulled the cv shaft out while putting the lift on.

M190 diff is no worse than M210 diff with a locker. At this time if the M190 diff was an issue we would know about! I don't think people look at the fact that a 4.71 gears in a larger differential have the same contact area as 4.46 or 4.27 gears in smaller differential. There have been a few threads about blow differential but really nothing more than what's to be expected from offroad use and random failures.

 

[Snacktime]

So what is the recommendation for those of us that want to lift a non sasquatch and get bigger tires?

I want to get a Big Bend and 35" pizza cutters (LT/255/85R17) and Old Man Emu lift which is 2 inches.

Will I be OK as far as CV joints go?

Up to 4" on non-sas and 3" on sas, the issue is how much droop. At this time max spacer thickness is the issue and OME doesn't use spacers(just a few shims) so no issues with that lift.

 

[Jdyount]

A really big part of the equation here is rotating mass of the tires.

For comparison let's look at the SAS package with the stronger m210 axle. Ford still went with a very light 35" tire (actually 34.4") @ 54 lbs. For comparison a 35" Nitto Trail Grappler weighs 80 lbs. That's a pretty big difference.

Now if you apply the difference between what tires the m190 was designed for vs very heavy 35" tires, something is going to give. It's simple physics: When you have that much rotational inertia and that small of an axle, something is going to break.

This has been the case for years and years with Jeeps. People go buy a Wrangler Sport with Dana 35s, they throw a lift on and 35" tires, then they start breaking axle shafts.

 

[Snacktime]

A really big part of the equation here is rotating mass of the tires.

For comparison let's look at the SAS package with the stronger m210 axle. Ford still went with a very light 35" tire (actually 34.4") @ 54 lbs. For comparison a 35" Nitto Trail Grappler weighs 80 lbs. That's a pretty big difference.

Now if you apply the difference between what tires the m190 was designed for vs very heavy 35" tires, something is going to give. It's simple physics: When you have that much rotational inertia and that small of an axle, something is going to break.

This has been the case for years and years with Jeeps. People go buy a Wrangler Sport with Dana 35s, they throw a lift on and 35" tires, then they start breaking axle shafts.

I agree, but dana 35 issue has been ongoing since its inception. M190 failures would be all over the internet if they had the same issue. Instead all we see is tie rod stuff.

I would be more afraid of 25mph disengagement of the M210 locker. Locked up the front and hit a mud pit! The locker could disengage when fully loaded. I suspect the 25mph safety feature has more to do with M210 failures than we know at this point.

 

[Jdyount]

I agree, but dana 35 issue has been ongoing since its inception. M190 failures would be all over the internet if they had the same issue. Instead all we see is tie rod stuff.

I would be more afraid of 25mph disengagement of the M210 locker. Locked up the front and hit a mud pit! The locker could disengage when fully loaded. I suspect the 25mph safety feature has more to do with M210 failures than we know at this point.

We have seen M190 failures, and I think it's going to get worse as more people upgrade and off-road their Broncos.

It's a little beyond me why Ford even messed with using the M190. It's not like it offers a higher gear ratio. All Broncos have the M220, why not use only the M210 for the front. It may be a few hundred bucks cheaper to put in the M190, that's about it. Definitely NOT worth the trouble and not worth people having to worry spending a ton of money upgrading axles to add lockers or lower gears.

 

[Tech Tim]

Can you provide more info on your setup, I'm doing same as you with Factory Sas wheels/tires and shocks on my base that was built last week.

What do you want to know?

Currently sitting on a split RC leveling kit w/ 35s Patagonia X/Ts on TeraFlex Nomad Wheels:




Installing an Old Man Emu suspension in the next few weeks.

It's getting an Air Locker in the rear axle and when that front M210 shows up, it'll have the ELocker in it.

I want to get a Big Bend and 35" pizza cutters (LT/255/85R17) and Old Man Emu lift which is 2 inches.

Will I be OK as far as CV joints go?

Yes, your CVs will be fine with the Bronco OME kit.

 

[Bing]

We have seen M190 failures, and I think it's going to get worse as more people upgrade and off-road their Broncos.

It's a little beyond me why Ford even messed with using the M190. It's not like it offers a higher gear ratio. All Broncos have the M220, why not use only the M210 for the front. It may be a few hundred bucks cheaper to put in the M190, that's about it. Definitely NOT worth the trouble and not worth people having to worry spending a ton of money upgrading axles to add lockers or lower gears.

Totally Agree!

 

[CMillBronco]

What do you want to know?

Currently sitting on a split RC leveling kit w/ 35s Patagonia X/Ts on TeraFlex Nomad Wheels:




Installing an Old Man Emu suspension in the next few weeks.

It's getting an Air Locker in the rear axle and when that front M210 shows up, it'll have the ELocker in it.




Yes, your CVs will be fine with the Bronco OME kit.

That's what I wanted to know thanks, I'm doing a 2 dr base with Sas shocks and wheels/tires just hoping my axles don't give me fits.

 

[Little Foot]

A 2 inch lift is not detrimental to a non-SAS Bronco. Ford sells a 2 inch Ford Performance lift for non-SAS Broncos.

Anyone that says it is, sorry, but Ford says otherwise.

 

[TallDude]

So, based on the commentary of this thread and assuming "any" lift compromises the axle of the Base, Big Bend, Black Diamond, and Outer Banks (all non-squatch), then someone please explain the Ford Performance lift for me. Why would Ford engineer a lift specifically for the those models if they know it will compromise the CV/Axles of those particular models.

Bilstein "Tuned by Ford Performance" front and rear coil-over assembly package

Ford Performance & Bilstein partnership creating a versatile upgrade taking your Bronco to the next level of Performance.
These proprietary kits are uniquely tuned and tested by Ford Performance Engineering to optimize ride and performance both Off- and On- Road.

• Fits: 2021-2023 Bronco 2-Door
  • Unique shock tuning specific to 2-Door Bronco
  • Designed and optimized as an upgrade to Base, Big Bend, Black Diamond, and Outer Banks Series
  • Not validated against Sasquatch Package, Badlands, Everglades, and Raptor
  • For 4-Door specific kit, see M-18000-B1
• Direct bolt-in replacement suspension package, improving both ride quality and stance of vehicle
• This proprietary kit utilizes unique shock tuning led by Ford Performance Parts engineering developed over ruthless terrain
• Approximately 2" of lift results in optimal ground clearance and approach/departure angles
• Kit includes bolt-in front and rear coil-over packages, utilizes both Bilstein and Ford OE components to ensure lasting Ford Performance
  • Front and rear 60mm digressive piston in a massive 2.65" mono-tube Ford Performance shock package
  • Front and Rear springs/top mount as found on factory Sasquatch package
• Largest shock diameter of any production Bronco (excluding Raptor)
• Comes with Ford Performance 3yr/36,000 mile warranty when installed by a Ford Dealer or ASE/Red Seal certified technician
• Each shock features a unique "Tuned by Ford Performance" decal placed over steel damper

I was just wondering the exact same thing!

 

[projectbadlands]

Looks like a bad install, someone pulled the cv shaft out while putting the lift on.

M190 diff is no worse than M210 diff with a locker. At this time if the M190 diff was an issue we would know about! I don't think people look at the fact that a 4.71 gears in a larger differential have the same contact area as 4.46 or 4.27 gears in smaller differential. There have been a few threads about blow differential but really nothing more than what's to be expected from offroad use and random failures.

I will second this motion and I speak from experience. I over extended my axle when installing kings because I did not have the proper axle nut to release the axle from the hub. As I pushing down the knuckle to be able to clear the bottom shock studs, I extended the axle past its flex point and the end popped off. I thought I had reseated everything back in properly but that was not the case. A few hundred miles later I started getting clunking from that same axle and noticed the boot was also twisted. New axle and new axle nut socket and I was back in action. Super simple to replace.

 

[rtd16]

While I agree, Ford does advertise it can be lifted on the non-Sas models (and the 'lift me baby' messaging on the fenderwells), I do believe there is something else going on here. From personal experience after putting the Eibach lift on (non-spacer), I have thumping/clicking from either the front differential or axle. In the dead of winter I haven't really had the weather to get it off the ground and pinpoint it. Thought it was the axle and replaced it (emphasizing to the installer the suspected failed one could have been improperly installed from the lift install as others have mentioned). Installer replaced the axle, but couldn't find anything wrong with the old axle, even articulating at severe angles evaluating the CV. Noise is still present in 4WD and I don't do any real crazy off roading and only run 33" tires. And I've found others throughout the forum who've experienced issues following non-spacer lift installs. So again, I agree Ford may say it's ok to lift (to 2" anyway), but something is definitely amiss with the front end and/or differential set up on some of these vehicles.

A 2 inch lift is not detrimental to a non-SAS Bronco. Ford sells a 2 inch Ford Performance lift for non-SAS Broncos.

Anyone that says it is, sorry, but Ford says otherwise.

 

[Little Foot]

While I agree, Ford does advertise it can be lifted on the non-Sas models (and the 'lift me baby' messaging on the fenderwells), I do believe there is something else going on here. From personal experience after putting the Eibach lift on (non-spacer), I have thumping/clicking from either the front differential or axle. In the dead of winter I haven't really had the weather to get it off the ground and pinpoint it. Thought it was the axle and replaced it (emphasizing to the installer the suspected failed one could have been improperly installed from the lift install as others have mentioned). Installer replaced the axle, but couldn't find anything wrong with the old axle, even articulating at severe angles evaluating the CV. Noise is still present in 4WD and I don't do any real crazy off roading and only run 33" tires. And I've found others throughout the forum who've experienced issues following non-spacer lift installs. So again, I agree Ford may say it's ok to lift (to 2" anyway), but something is definitely amiss with the front end and/or differential set up on some of these vehicles.

That is certainly something that scares me with all the different options and lifts out there, etc…Does your lift come with a warranty if installed by a Ford or certified mechanic? Just curious…..I think the Ford Performance one does. I also think that the independent front suspension definitely complicates things.

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