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ZackDanger

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From two other threads discussing the parts catalog and real-world info from the 4WP team... here's what I think is going on with the suspension components:





The Ford parts catalog does indeed list three separate suspension called "Standard," "Special" and "High Ride" with images that that correspond to Base-OB, BL, and Sas shocks we've seen in public.

Base - OB shocks have a typical range of motion, and actually don't allow the wheels to drop as far as the position sensitive bilstiens. Following a discussion in another thread, this means a "level/budget" lift of spacers is fine if someone wants to add larger tires.

BL / Sas shocks allow for greater range of motion / more drop. They are actually maximized for the platform and at full drop the CV angle is maxed out. Therefore a "level/budget" lift will cause CV problems at max drop.

If you want to quickly/most cheaply raise a BL or Sas height and you don't want to lose range of motion, you'd need to change something about the springs (length, perch, etc)... basically raising where the vehicle sits at rest within its normal range. This will not effect max drop or impact CV.

You could do the budget lift, but you'd have to limit downward travel by the same amount (by adding straps or something) to protect the CV's... but that's limiting travel.



As a result, I suspect that if you want to turn your BL setup into a Sas height, you'll probably need to do the spring adjustment listed above, and then add a spacer to limit compression so you don't get interference with the 35" tire at compression.

This actually jives with the Ford rep stating there is a 10mm "spacer" and the other stating it's 10mm "higher" on the sas than the BL.... what they meant was the shock spindle is 10mm longer on the Sas, raising the vehicle by that much, but then there is also an equivalent decreased range of motion / articulation which has also been mentioned to protect the CVs.

This could be the reason why there are different shock parts and BL is said to have the greatest articulation of all trims.

From the parts catalog:


Ford Bronco Bilstein HOSS & Position Sensitive Dampers Part Numbers & Differences shock-comparison-


Sources:

https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/threads/bronco-parts-department-catalog-is-up.16634/

https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/thre...-37”-tires-on-2021-bronco-4wp-explains.16623/
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webspoke

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From two other threads discussing the parts catalog and real-world info from the 4WP team... here's what I think is going on with the suspension components:





The Ford parts catalog does indeed list three separate suspension called "Standard," "Special" and "High Ride" with images that that correspond to Base-OB, BL, and Sas shocks we've seen in public.

Base - OB shocks have a typical range of motion, and actually don't allow the wheels to drop as far as the position sensitive bilstiens. Following a discussion in another thread, this means a "level/budget" lift of spacers is fine if someone wants to add larger tires.

BL / Sas shocks allow for greater range of motion / more drop. They are actually maximized for the platform and at full drop the CV angle is maxed out. Therefore a "level/budget" lift will cause CV problems at max drop.

If you want to quickly/most cheaply raise a BL or Sas height and you don't want to lose range of motion, you'd need to change something about the springs (length, perch, etc)... basically raising where the vehicle sits at rest within its normal range. This will not effect max drop or impact CV.

You could do the budget lift, but you'd have to limit downward travel by the same amount (by adding straps or something) to protect the CV's... but that's limiting travel.



As a result, I suspect that if you want to turn your BL setup into a Sas height, you'll probably need to do the spring adjustment listed above, and then add a spacer to limit compression so you don't get interference with the 35" tire at compression.

This actually jives with the Ford rep stating there is a 10mm "spacer" and the other stating it's 10mm "higher" on the sas than the BL.... what they meant was the shock spindle is 10mm longer on the Sas, raising the vehicle by that much, but then there is also an equivalent decreased range of motion / articulation which has also been mentioned to protect the CVs.

This could be the reason why there are different shock parts and BL is said to have the greatest articulation of all trims.

From the parts catalog:


Ford Bronco Bilstein HOSS & Position Sensitive Dampers Part Numbers & Differences shock-comparison-


Sources:

https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/threads/bronco-parts-department-catalog-is-up.16634/

https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/thre...-37”-tires-on-2021-bronco-4wp-explains.16623/
This is a great explanation, thanks for all the research.
 

dgorsett

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From two other threads discussing the parts catalog and real-world info from the 4WP team... here's what I think is going on with the suspension components:





The Ford parts catalog does indeed list three separate suspension called "Standard," "Special" and "High Ride" with images that that correspond to Base-OB, BL, and Sas shocks we've seen in public.

Base - OB shocks have a typical range of motion, and actually don't allow the wheels to drop as far as the position sensitive bilstiens. Following a discussion in another thread, this means a "level/budget" lift of spacers is fine if someone wants to add larger tires.

BL / Sas shocks allow for greater range of motion / more drop. They are actually maximized for the platform and at full drop the CV angle is maxed out. Therefore a "level/budget" lift will cause CV problems at max drop.

If you want to quickly/most cheaply raise a BL or Sas height and you don't want to lose range of motion, you'd need to change something about the springs (length, perch, etc)... basically raising where the vehicle sits at rest within its normal range. This will not effect max drop or impact CV.

You could do the budget lift, but you'd have to limit downward travel by the same amount (by adding straps or something) to protect the CV's... but that's limiting travel.



As a result, I suspect that if you want to turn your BL setup into a Sas height, you'll probably need to do the spring adjustment listed above, and then add a spacer to limit compression so you don't get interference with the 35" tire at compression.

This actually jives with the Ford rep stating there is a 10mm "spacer" and the other stating it's 10mm "higher" on the sas than the BL.... what they meant was the shock spindle is 10mm longer on the Sas, raising the vehicle by that much, but then there is also an equivalent decreased range of motion / articulation which has also been mentioned to protect the CVs.

This could be the reason why there are different shock parts and BL is said to have the greatest articulation of all trims.

From the parts catalog:


Ford Bronco Bilstein HOSS & Position Sensitive Dampers Part Numbers & Differences 1620995530591-png-


Sources:

https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/threads/bronco-parts-department-catalog-is-up.16634/

https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/thre...-37”-tires-on-2021-bronco-4wp-explains.16623/
Great analysis. I didn't quite get the 4WP guy saying CV angle was an issue, because all photos look like CV's have a long way to go before there would be an issue. I did not consider drop!!! Once again, Zack to the rescue!! Also by this logic, the 4WP 1-3" lift must be OK because they limit drop...good to know (or at least assume).
 

cmcbronco

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From two other threads discussing the parts catalog and real-world info from the 4WP team... here's what I think is going on with the suspension components:





The Ford parts catalog does indeed list three separate suspension called "Standard," "Special" and "High Ride" with images that that correspond to Base-OB, BL, and Sas shocks we've seen in public.

Base - OB shocks have a typical range of motion, and actually don't allow the wheels to drop as far as the position sensitive bilstiens. Following a discussion in another thread, this means a "level/budget" lift of spacers is fine if someone wants to add larger tires.

BL / Sas shocks allow for greater range of motion / more drop. They are actually maximized for the platform and at full drop the CV angle is maxed out. Therefore a "level/budget" lift will cause CV problems at max drop.

If you want to quickly/most cheaply raise a BL or Sas height and you don't want to lose range of motion, you'd need to change something about the springs (length, perch, etc)... basically raising where the vehicle sits at rest within its normal range. This will not effect max drop or impact CV.

You could do the budget lift, but you'd have to limit downward travel by the same amount (by adding straps or something) to protect the CV's... but that's limiting travel.



As a result, I suspect that if you want to turn your BL setup into a Sas height, you'll probably need to do the spring adjustment listed above, and then add a spacer to limit compression so you don't get interference with the 35" tire at compression.

This actually jives with the Ford rep stating there is a 10mm "spacer" and the other stating it's 10mm "higher" on the sas than the BL.... what they meant was the shock spindle is 10mm longer on the Sas, raising the vehicle by that much, but then there is also an equivalent decreased range of motion / articulation which has also been mentioned to protect the CVs.

This could be the reason why there are different shock parts and BL is said to have the greatest articulation of all trims.

From the parts catalog:


Ford Bronco Bilstein HOSS & Position Sensitive Dampers Part Numbers & Differences 1620995530591-png-


Sources:

https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/threads/bronco-parts-department-catalog-is-up.16634/

https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/thre...-37”-tires-on-2021-bronco-4wp-explains.16623/
reading through the 4wp thread I didn’t understand why a small level kit wouldn’t work for sas....now I know. I’ve done a couple leveling kits before but in no way am I an expert on suspension so thanks for the explanation as everyone can understand it.
 

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ZackDanger

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Great analysis. I didn't quite get the 4WP guy saying CV angle was an issue, because all photos look like CV's have a long way to go before there would be an issue. I did not consider drop!!! Once again, Zack to the rescue!! Also by this logic, the 4WP 1-3" lift must be OK because they limit drop...good to know (or at least assume).
Thanks.

From what I've been able to peace together this is what we know (and special thanks to Ryan / 4WP for doing some trial and error on it):

1. We have to watch for drop because of CV issues. Depending on what method you use to raise the vehicle, it will have different impacts on how much drop is effected... short take: a budget lift on BL or Sas wont work because they are already at their shocks allow for too much downward travel. Sas is said to have limited travel (downward we now presume) over BL. (The base shocks do not have as much travel and therefore can accommodate a budget lift)

2. We have to watch for interference on 33 and 35" tires during compression. Without some sort of lift or bump stops, bigger tires will interfere under compression. Sas is said to have 10mm bump stops over BL.

3. Offset matters. 4wp says 30mm is sweet spot for larger tires. They say that larger tires on trims that don't otherwise come with them may require plastic trimming.... and larger tires on lower offset (0mm), irrespective of lift, potentially require plastic *and* pinch weld trimming.

4. The physical dimensions of the wheel well (beyond what can be trimmed) will *not* support a 40" tire.... but 4wp is "working" on a solution.

Compared to the BL, the Sas, in order to accommodate the 35" tires, seems to have limitations imposed on the downward / upward travel.... which jives with the Ford reps saying all along that the BL has the "most capable" suspension.... the tires aren't as big, which can be important for getting over obstacles... but the articulation / range of motion seems to be the best out of the bunch.
 

Rick Astley

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That just makes you look taller but doesn't change your ground clearance. May not matter at the mall.
It might not matter at Lloyd Center when the ice rink is open, but it sure as hell will matter at Pioneer Square where you have to look "Northwest Classy" to stand out! You guys don't have Sir Mix-a-Lot down there to set the gold standard and Lillard doesn't spend the off-season in the city.

I still remember swimming in Keller Fountain Park as a kid, they probably shut that down or turned it into a protest zone by now.


On-topic; I appreciate the hard work by @North7 and @ZackDanger on this. Now we get to see what these 4wp shocks are that have 20% more travel they spoke of.....
 

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That just makes you look taller but doesn't change your ground clearance. May not matter at the mall.
A body lift does give you more space from the tire to the fenders. This would let you use bigger tires. The bigger tires give you more ground clearance.
So a body lift for a Sasquatch may get you from 35 to 37's and do it for not much money. Because it doesn't change the suspension you don't have to worry about the CV axles binding.
 
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Evolkidbell

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2. We have to watch for interference on 33 and 35" tires during compression. Without some sort of lift or bump stops, bigger tires will interfere under compression. Sas is said to have 10mm bump stops over BL.
Looking at one of the picture above, I'm starting to think there is no extra bump-stop on the SAS suspension at all. I'm leaning that the shock body is 10mm longer and the stroke is shorter to align with the extended length of the BL shocks. Extended length on both BL and SAS shocks are the same. Compressed length on the SAS is 10mm longer.

Unlike other truck mfgs like Nissan and Toyota, Ford does not use a bump-stop on the lower arm. Jounce travel is limited by the shock itself. Looks backed up by the 2 separate Part numbers for the two, and the picture from @North7.

BTW, spacer lifts are the devil. I could go on and on about all the failures I've seen with them. With Ford trucks, the CVs can usually take an extreme angle and survive. The boots tend to start ripping. The bigger issue I've seen the the ball joint in the upper arm cannot take the extra angle. They tend to bend the joint cage and come apart. Not pretty.
 

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ZackDanger

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Looking at one of the picture above, I'm starting to think there is no extra bump-stop on the SAS suspension at all. I'm leaning that the shock body is 10mm longer and the stroke is shorter to align with the extended length of the BL shocks. Extended length on both BL and SAS shocks are the same. Compressed length on the SAS is 10mm longer.

Unlike other truck mfgs like Nissan and Toyota, Ford does not use a bump-stop on the lower arm. Jounce travel is limited by the shock itself. Looks backed up by the 2 separate Part numbers for the two, and the picture from @North7.

BTW, spacer lifts are the devil. I could go on and on about all the failures I've seen with them. With Ford trucks, the CVs can usually take an extreme angle and survive. The boots tend to start ripping. The bigger issue I've seen the the ball joint in the upper arm cannot take the extra angle. They tend to bend the joint cage and come apart. Not pretty.
Yeah, I absolutely agree and was thinking the same thing in regards to the lengthened spindle.

I think I was parroting early CEL Ford rep who said “bump stop” and “limited travel”… and was rounding it all together in terms of someone looking to go to 35” tires on a non-Sas suspension.

All that’s to say: Thank you for elaborating!
 
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North7

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@North7 great work out there.
Did you get any more info or even a feel for what the "heavy-duty use" is on those non-live shocks?
Yes, we discussed the Bilstien ESCV shocks and compared them to the Fox non-live units. I explained with a 95% daily driver the Bilstein's sound like they would give me a comfortable on road ride and do well off-road, he agreed. He mentioned he had low back issues, as do I, and that I may find the Fox non-live units less comfortable and rougher riding as they are more intended for heavier duty off-road use, which I take it to mean they could be something equivalent to a 2 1/2" class shock.
@ZackDanger @Evolkidbell @Lakelife36

More intel on the upcoming Ford Performance shocks I learned about at last weekends Bridgeport event. While at the 4WP show in Dallas yesterday I spoke with the Bilstein rep and he told me he was working with Ford on a "new project". He said they will be available though Ford Performance, as I heard from the Ford Performance rep last week.

It involves their model 6112 unit and it will be a drop in replacement for use with the Sasquatch springs as these springs are "Barrel design spring" that work well off-road. The Badlands springs or the standard model springs will not work with this part number. You have to imagine they may also make a second part number available with the springs for those coming from a non Sasquatch model.

I told him I had heard about them from the Ford Performance rep who said they would be ready by Q3 but he said more like Christmas (North7 connects the dots).

Further, I asked if the Bilstein ESCV design they are making for Ford is the same as the 8112 models and he said only in concept as the ESCV's are tailored for a production price point.
 

Evolkidbell

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@ZackDanger @Evolkidbell @Lakelife36

It involves their model 6112 unit and it will be a drop in replacement for use with the Sasquatch springs as these springs are "Barrel design spring" that work well off-road. The Badlands springs or the standard model springs will not work with this part number. You have to imagine they may also make a second part number available with the springs for those coming from a non Sasquatch model.

Further, I asked if the Bilstein ESCV design they are making for Ford is the same as the 8112 models and he said only in concept as the ESCV's are tailored for a production price point.
The 6112s are the equivalent of a 2.5" diameter shock. There shouldn't be an ESCV in them.
I know there has been discussion if a bigger shock w/o ESCV is better than a smaller shock w/.
There are pros and cons to both options.
Personally, I'd go with a bigger diameter shock that can be disassembled and valved correctly.
You can valve a bigger shock down and get a way more compliant ride. Less harsh on the sharp bumps.
Barrel Springs are good for a larger percentage of travel vs cylindrical windings. I really don't see other performance gains unless the coils are progressively wound. Progessive wound springs would do very well off-road. I would assume the Eibachs and Hyper-Coils out there will be making aftermarket coils for the different Bilstien and Tennico configurations.

Right. If you google the crossesctions of the Bronco shocks and the 8112s, there is a similarity to the designs but it's apparent the Bronco shocks are designed for mass production.
 

Dads_bronze_bronco

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@ZackDanger @Evolkidbell @Lakelife36

More intel on the upcoming Ford Performance shocks I learned about at last weekends Bridgeport event. While at the 4WP show in Dallas yesterday I spoke with the Bilstein rep and he told me he was working with Ford on a "new project". He said they will be available though Ford Performance, as I heard from the Ford Performance rep last week.

It involves their model 6112 unit ...
Did the rep say if the 6112 variant would get ESCV? Any additional lift? / Adjustable?
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